Dave Meyer has no illusions about what worship is and the purpose of the Church. He says, “We’re not here on Sunday mornings because we’re wonderfully good people. We’re here because we know how bad we are and we need that forgiveness.” In Part 2 of our interview with Dave we explore what it means to be “Lutheran,” we further discuss his shared faith and practice in his family, the importance of being asked to serve as a youth, and we talk about parenting and men’s ministry (called Journeymen at St. Paul’s). This interview is a joyful, full-of-flesh, Christ-in-all-things kind of conversation. Enjoy.
Recorded 4 April, A.D. 2024
[00:00:00] We're not here on Sunday mornings because we are wonderful good people.
[00:00:04] We're here because we know how bad we are and we need that forgiveness.
[00:00:36] We're giving the love and hope of Christ.
[00:00:38] These conversations are an invitation because as much as you'll hear and as much as we enjoy having them,
[00:00:45] digital media operates from a distance and that's not what's best for us with God or with one another.
[00:00:52] So thanks for listening.
[00:00:54] And if you're in the neighborhood, we invite you to participate in person in the life that finds its epicenter at St. Paul's Lutheran Church, 210 East Pleasant Street,
[00:01:04] in O'Connor, Wisconsin.
[00:01:12] Hello listeners. Welcome back to Christ In All Things.
[00:01:15] My name is Pastor Jason Schockman.
[00:01:17] And I'm Pastor Lance ODonnell.
[00:01:19] And we are still having a conversation with David Meyer, David Robert Meyer, the beloved bright flame shining higher superior one.
[00:01:29] Because that's what his name means.
[00:01:31] David, we kind of quickly at the end of the last episode ran through the top five people that you say influenced you to be the person that you are.
[00:01:42] And I said we want to go back and touch on a part of each of those.
[00:01:46] So let's repeat those.
[00:01:47] So let's recap.
[00:01:48] Right.
[00:01:49] Number one is your parents and grandparents and how in word indeed you followed in their example even as a 15 year old being pegged as a part of the long range
[00:02:00] planning committee for the congregation at Covenant Lutheran.
[00:02:04] Your second was your wife, which you highlighted the shared faith and practice that really was the touchstone and the foundation for the life that you share together.
[00:02:20] And so we'll talk more about that when you're talked about your son Caleb becoming a dad changed everything.
[00:02:28] I want to come back to and ask the question of you.
[00:02:31] What have you learned from Caleb?
[00:02:34] And then last week to our sorry fourth, we talked about being a member at St. Paul's and how that really has shaped and changed you as you've
[00:02:46] year learned what it means to be Lutheran.
[00:02:48] And I said, I want you to define that for me.
[00:02:51] And then fifth and finally we talked about you taking over as kind of the leader of journeyman.
[00:02:57] And my question to you was how do you recruit the next leader of the journeyman?
[00:03:03] And so I want us to chat about that and have some conversation there.
[00:03:09] So Pastor O'Donnell, we've got five different touchstones to circle back to in the next half an hour.
[00:03:17] Where do you want to start?
[00:03:18] I want to let's start at the beginning there.
[00:03:20] Okay.
[00:03:21] That you got, you were asked at 15 years old, you're a high school junior.
[00:03:26] You were asked to participate at Covenant's long term planning committee related to the call of the next pastor.
[00:03:37] Why did they choose you and what did you learn from that experience?
[00:03:43] I have no idea why they chose me.
[00:03:45] They just asked me.
[00:03:46] I didn't really question.
[00:03:47] I said, okay.
[00:03:48] I think both pastor shock when I could give you a guess why they chose you.
[00:03:52] Oh, I'm sure they could.
[00:03:54] They could.
[00:03:55] Yes, both of these guys sitting right here in the room.
[00:03:57] They could.
[00:03:58] What would your answer to be my answer would be because you were a servant of the church first like you saw the need and you were ready to serve.
[00:04:06] You were active in the life of the congregation and by all appearances, we're going to continue to be active in the life of the congregation moving forward.
[00:04:16] That's a voice as a young person.
[00:04:19] And let's let's give let's pause here and give credit to the leadership at Covenant because even there are lots of congregations out there that recognize young people with servant.
[00:04:35] Hardness.
[00:04:36] Yeah, but not not everybody in whether it was necessity or something else, but not everybody even recognizing that will ask the 15 year old to play an active role.
[00:04:49] And so I would say let's give thanks to God for whoever it was at Covenant that said, Hey, Dave should do this.
[00:05:00] This young man hit we need to hear his voice.
[00:05:03] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:05:04] Yeah.
[00:05:05] So what did you want to set the stage for it so it would seem for your life?
[00:05:10] Yeah, potentially I mean what did I learn?
[00:05:14] It was a it was unique experience again this is so far back that's kind of hard for me to know nearly 30 years ago.
[00:05:23] Oh yeah.
[00:05:24] Yeah, you're an old fart.
[00:05:25] I am kind of an old fart now.
[00:05:27] Young.
[00:05:28] He's still older than I am but so is he.
[00:05:31] That's true.
[00:05:32] Yeah, but we're all pointing fingers around the room about who's older.
[00:05:35] He's like cross fingers.
[00:05:36] You lose Dave.
[00:05:37] I do.
[00:05:38] I'm the baby here.
[00:05:39] So what did you learn?
[00:05:40] You know that's it.
[00:05:43] Like I said, that's a tough question.
[00:05:44] I got to really dig back in the memory hole to see what I learned.
[00:05:47] What do you let's get this way?
[00:05:49] What do you remember from being on the committee?
[00:05:52] I'm having a bit of a voice in in kind of helping to form the direction that the congregation would end up going.
[00:06:02] Just kind of being a part of that knowing that that's kind of a big deal and what that would end up leading to.
[00:06:09] I couldn't imagine that the person that we called is still serving as the pastor there now.
[00:06:16] So, you know, and you know, it's just it's just kind of being a part setting, you know, helping to kind of form the direction of a congregation is kind of it's kind of really think about it.
[00:06:32] It's kind of a big deal when you're a part of those things.
[00:06:35] Absolutely.
[00:06:36] And I'm thinking about, you know what I know of you, you've said before, you know, when you were little in elementary school, you got bullied a bit.
[00:06:44] And what a as it were shot in the arm, it would be a kind, you know, for a kid for a kid who wasn't necessarily recognized when he was little to be a high schooler and say this kid's really valuable to us as a congregation as a congregation.
[00:07:06] Yeah, that's a big deal.
[00:07:09] And it wasn't me. It wasn't big deal to me to be a part of that because that's like, you know, there must be something I'm doing right or maybe not something I'm doing right but just something that, you know, it just furthered my willingness and wanted to serve more.
[00:07:23] Yep. Good for you. Good for them.
[00:07:26] Yeah, to recognize it and pull it out and then listen. Right.
[00:07:31] And then listen when you.
[00:07:32] Yeah, so on the committee it was because you kind of said it but I want to reaffirm it. They actually listened to your opinion.
[00:07:40] Yeah, I mean it was a lot of us different age groups, different varying servants of the church, the senior pastor at the time was part of that group.
[00:07:48] And the gentleman that was the former superintendent of the Luton High School Association was all part of that and so I was kind of, you know, it was kind of some heavy hitters within the congregation and to be kind of part of that.
[00:08:02] But again just sitting there forming out okay what are we looking for? You know what is what are we going to need to take the congregation forward?
[00:08:11] You know, because a few years later than the senior would retire himself. So yeah it was it was a very, you know, I don't remember a lot of the details of it anymore but it's just being there was just kind of.
[00:08:21] You know, without hoping hopefully not taking us a field but it relates to a conversation we had off mic a few minutes ago before, you know, before we came back on.
[00:08:33] And one of the advantages as a man in your position is you get to know, you spend a lot of time working behind the scenes. You get to know your pastors as human beings.
[00:08:45] And I would like you to repeat, you know, so that has some advantages and if you can repeat what you said to us off mic a little bit ago.
[00:08:56] What are those advantages of knowing, working behind the scenes and knowing your pastors as human beings?
[00:09:02] You know them as human beings, you know sometimes I think you know, these are servants of God. These are the ones preaching in there and they have this authority that comes from their office.
[00:09:13] But knowing you know you on this personal level like I do, it allows me to kind of see you as humans, see you as sinners and go okay you're not perfect either.
[00:09:23] Let's you know, let's forgive each other. Let's talk about things. Let's work through things but you know it kind of takes a little bit of the mystique away in a way that you can have conversations that need to be had.
[00:09:37] It's a big deal.
[00:09:39] I think yeah the way you described it earlier was it really removes the pedestal without disrespecting the office that we hold or the work that we're called to do.
[00:09:49] In fact in some ways you had said it's almost easier to hear when we speak law and gospel because you know we're not coming at it from a holier than now perspective.
[00:10:02] Right.
[00:10:03] This is a big deal and it's not a side real because you brought it up.
[00:10:10] And so for our listeners whether at St. Paul's or in other congregations this is an argument and I mean that in the positive sense, an argument for actively involving your youth in the decision making of the congregation.
[00:10:28] And what Dave has just told us, this is a really big deal.
[00:10:33] Yet you see sometimes the challenging underbelly of congregational life but you also see those workers as human beings and it makes you in your case makes you more prone to be graceful with them.
[00:10:51] Correct.
[00:10:52] And in a way to seeing the underbelly side of church as you will in leadership it almost makes it easier to explain to people outside that you know we're not a bunch of you know the world makes us look like we are holier than now.
[00:11:07] We don't want to take your fun away.
[00:11:09] You know we're these good people so when we fail it's whole you know it's just it's horribly scandalous for we look at it when we can explain to people.
[00:11:18] We're just a bunch of sinners trying our best to steward this gift that God has given us God's church.
[00:11:26] We're not going to do that perfectly we are really going to screw it up.
[00:11:30] Now notice that language directly relates to something he said further down the list because dude that was a very good Lutheran answer.
[00:11:40] It was.
[00:11:41] I was going to wait on that but yeah.
[00:11:44] You know it's one of those where you go you know we're not here on Sunday mornings because we are wonderful good people.
[00:11:51] We're here because we know bad we are and we need that forgiveness.
[00:11:56] Yeah so we do need that forgiveness and since you brought up forgiveness that's a great time to maybe push into the second thing that we talked about or that you talked about for me is who you are.
[00:12:09] And that is as much of a Billy Crystal way as I can say it your wife.
[00:12:16] Yes right.
[00:12:17] Yeah right and there's a there's a Princess Bride moment.
[00:12:23] There is right there on the tip of my tongue that I'm going to hold back.
[00:12:26] Yeah for now you when you talked about Jackie and meeting Jackie and and dating Jackie and deciding very early on that you knew.
[00:12:38] That Jackie was the one you wanted to spend the rest of your life with really all of that revolved around you and her having this shared history and view of what it meant to be part of not only each other's lives
[00:13:02] in each other's families lives but God's church.
[00:13:05] Correct.
[00:13:06] So for four couples that maybe didn't start that way.
[00:13:14] How have you grown in that in your life together in the church and I'm asking it that way because maybe not every couple comes to their marriage vows with that.
[00:13:28] Oh by the way we have this shared experience and shared value of our service in the church but they know their life together in Christ is important.
[00:13:38] Right.
[00:13:39] So you did have that but then you plug into a church and you grow in that so how do you as a couple grow in that shared experience and service to the church to God's church.
[00:13:53] You know we're coming together.
[00:13:54] You know I mean we don't when I come here to elder we don't go separately.
[00:13:59] You know she's here with me she's there we're just always doing things together.
[00:14:04] You mean when you come to serve as the elder of yes for a particular service.
[00:14:09] Correct.
[00:14:10] Right.
[00:14:11] So when you're here on Saturday night as the head or as the elder of that service your wife and your son are here with you as you come in an hour early.
[00:14:19] Yep.
[00:14:20] To set up.
[00:14:21] Or early sometimes now that Jackie's been serving as ultra on the ultra guild.
[00:14:26] So now usually we're kind of scheduled together which is really nice so she's doing her thing I'm doing my thing Caleb's helping me out and then you know when Jackie needs some help you know I go back there and kind of show her where things are or just help you know.
[00:14:41] Or you send Caleb or I sent Caleb you know she does need someone to reach basically is what she needs so.
[00:14:47] Because she is not vertically gifted.
[00:14:50] No she's not.
[00:14:51] She is she.
[00:14:53] I was very tempted once to give her a T-shirt that says you know I can do almost anything except reach the top shelf that I can't do.
[00:15:00] Wow.
[00:15:01] I think I got one of those for my five foot one daughter.
[00:15:04] Yeah.
[00:15:05] And Jackie thought it was pretty funny she's actually really good sport about that so.
[00:15:10] Indeed.
[00:15:12] So how have you grown in that so for a couple that's married and just starting their life together in service to the church.
[00:15:22] I'm hearing you say plug in together.
[00:15:25] Plug in together.
[00:15:26] Do things side by side.
[00:15:28] Right.
[00:15:29] What what else would you say.
[00:15:32] Be in the word together.
[00:15:34] Be going to Bible study together.
[00:15:37] Go to Bible study in your own group if you got a woman's group that you can you can plug into go to that.
[00:15:42] Men go to that you know so have your time together because sometimes you have different experiences shared with men.
[00:15:48] That's why the journeyman is such an important thing that's why women of joy is so important because there are certain things that you know that women relate to women on men relate to men on.
[00:15:58] So then of course what you talk about a journeyman doesn't get talked about with your wife though.
[00:16:04] It shouldn't know what come on now actually it does.
[00:16:06] Yeah it does.
[00:16:07] Some right some of what you bring home or you bring to your marriage those things that you're learning as you are a part of a group of guys that are studying the word.
[00:16:16] She brings to you the things that she's learning as the women of joy are gathering together.
[00:16:21] It doesn't mean that it doesn't mean that every trouble or every heartache or everything that is shared by someone else gets brought home and gossiped about inside the marriage not at all.
[00:16:33] But the things that God's word is imparting are shared.
[00:16:37] Right and sometimes to me you need to have you know having that partner.
[00:16:43] Yeah especially when you're in a role like mine where you're you know in the church as the head elder you know or as you do need that support you need someone to be able to talk to a little bit about things and be that sounding board.
[00:16:54] I mean I have that it's a blessing to have.
[00:16:57] Yeah yeah.
[00:17:00] Anything else you would add for a couple that's trying to grow together in Christ.
[00:17:05] Again just getting the word together do it together take advantage of if your church has got a marriage or treat go to that make sure your intention on that make sure your intention on spending finding time where you can spend together as a couple do those kind of things.
[00:17:21] Go to Bible study on Sunday morning together.
[00:17:23] Yeah go to Lutheran basics together.
[00:17:25] There you go.
[00:17:27] When you come into Lutheran basics together.
[00:17:29] Oh put the yeah I don't know yet because it starts on I know it does April 10 Wednesday night at 630 here at St. Paul's in room 219 shameless plug that is a shameless plug.
[00:17:40] Yeah this episode will go up well after that well after that but yeah either way so my life is number two.
[00:17:48] And the thing that you learned as you practice the faith together is the importance of being in the word together.
[00:17:55] You talked about Caleb being formative for you in that being a dad changed everything so what have you learned from Caleb.
[00:18:03] Patience.
[00:18:06] Caleb will challenge that and not in the way that you know it's not in the way that he's defined or is in his behavioral way just.
[00:18:16] Caleb's got some challenges.
[00:18:18] And in being here has been a blessing for him the school has been wonderful for him.
[00:18:24] There's an advantage of having some of the smaller class sizes he gets more one on one attention.
[00:18:30] He gets some intervention.
[00:18:32] I'll say this pastor shock when your wife is a blessing to him and to us.
[00:18:37] Thanks.
[00:18:39] You don't know how much we appreciate the work and the patience she has with him because he's got some challenges with learning executive function all those kind of those kind of skills that do that do make things very challenging for him.
[00:18:53] Whether it's remembering to do stuff from or those kind of things in you know when you get to the 50th time where you're going to tell him to do the same thing and you want to.
[00:19:04] Light his head off I have to watch that because again he's like me he can be very sensitive.
[00:19:10] So I have to kind of use you know got to remind myself of that because sometimes I can be you know shoot first ask questions later.
[00:19:18] You know so repentance and forgiveness has practiced a whole lot at our house.
[00:19:23] Yeah, I'm probably saying I'm sorry to him as much as he's saying it to me.
[00:19:27] Not so much because I had to tell him so the guy had to do it is the way I went about doing that was right wronged him.
[00:19:33] And if we go back a step the thing that you've learned as you've been in the word with your wife is how important forgiveness is in the face of repentance.
[00:19:41] That it's not just it's okay. It's not just I love you will be fine. It's a I forgive you.
[00:19:49] It is a blessing to have somebody, especially your spouse to be one of those that can really forgive you and really mean it.
[00:19:57] Like she doesn't hold it over your head.
[00:19:59] She shares it with you.
[00:20:00] I was gonna say what is what is that what does forgiveness mean you alluded to it.
[00:20:04] Yes, and she shares it with you because Jesus shares shared it with her so she gives you Christ's forgiveness.
[00:20:11] Correct.
[00:20:12] Which means she she lets it go.
[00:20:14] And I did the same thing with her which just we covered each other we just it's not worth it.
[00:20:20] Which is going to drag us right into Dave what do you mean when you say you didn't know what it meant to be Lutheran until you were here.
[00:20:27] You get so many influences from outside places you know where it's you know you start hearing the things about oh talking about you know.
[00:20:37] If I don't pray enough something went wrong I did something wrong because something bad happened to me I you know I I can I found myself trapped in a lot of that that thinking just over the course of time being young not being as plugged into the church when I was younger my college years and all that stuff.
[00:20:51] You kind of add your own philosophies and things into it.
[00:20:54] And I still a pretty regular church go through college but you know it was just being here and kind of understanding that you know we live in a sinful world bad things are going to happen sometimes God's disciplining you for the sins you commit there's no doubt about that but sometimes you experience God's discipline because he's got something else he needs to teach you.
[00:21:10] But it's not about me right.
[00:21:13] The good I have the good you know I'm a sinner I deserve nothing good.
[00:21:18] So I have God's forgiveness and I take the blessings that I have so changed your whole way of perspective but again it just it takes it it makes it not about you which is a great kind of it kind of unburdened you in that way.
[00:21:33] I have a related question.
[00:21:35] If you were to pick the top one two three things that formed you as a Lutheran in your time here.
[00:21:44] What would what would those be.
[00:21:47] Again being in Bible again though being in the word being in the Bible study listening.
[00:21:51] So regular Bible study by regular Bible study being in the elders and kind of what really forces you because in the role of being an elder.
[00:22:00] You kind of have to I mean your job is to hold the pastors accountable to following the Confessions.
[00:22:07] So what does that mean.
[00:22:08] You got to read them you got to learn them.
[00:22:10] So you spend time learning them.
[00:22:12] You spend time maybe listening some issues etc.
[00:22:14] Podcasts things of that nature that can teach you the faith and help you understand it which in way helps me understand it so you know those kind of things that I do actually help me grow in my faith.
[00:22:27] Yeah OK and would you say that that part and parcel of understanding when it meant to be Lutheran is adopting a Lutheran vocabulary.
[00:22:37] Yeah absolutely.
[00:22:39] Where did that come from again.
[00:22:42] Listening to people podcast get digging my immersing myself in this in in in what it means being in Bible study.
[00:22:50] Yeah exactly goes back to that.
[00:22:52] I'll even pull it back to being regular in worship where the language of the faith is is repeated and shared and and embedded in you such that that's the language of the faith that comes out later on for instance earlier when you talked about being.
[00:23:08] Being a God's church.
[00:23:10] Right.
[00:23:11] It's not our church.
[00:23:13] It's not this pastor's church.
[00:23:16] It's God's church and God called this pastor here or it's God's church and he called these people together.
[00:23:24] Right right in that vocabulary we hear it.
[00:23:29] Often from you and others here at St. Paul's and we're a choice in that that this vocabulary of the faith that that is that is distinctly Lutheran is heard and that's a that's a great thing.
[00:23:45] Yeah I really started digging even further probably in the within the last seven years during it you know I took a little bit of a break from leadership knowing that I was probably going to end up coming back but when I just you know when I came back I wanted to be a lot more
[00:23:59] prepared for being an elder than I was the first time.
[00:24:02] I was pretty young when I was an elder I was probably in my early 30s you know not where I needed to be.
[00:24:08] I kind of got thrust into leadership of the elders at a young age and then some other things and then I kind of just got you know things happen.
[00:24:17] I needed to take a break which it's okay to take a break everybody if you're serving you got to do it.
[00:24:23] But I came back kind of determined to be in a lot better position as far as what I knew what I understood so that I could actually be more effective.
[00:24:33] Yeah good for you and thank you.
[00:24:36] You're welcome which brings me to the last question and we've got about four minutes.
[00:24:40] Okay how do you recruit the next leader for journeyman.
[00:24:45] What are you looking for.
[00:24:46] And again the journeyman is our men's Bible study and kind of men's group here at St. Paul's and we meet twice a month for breakfast in Bible study and then in the morning in the morning and then and do some and there are some acts of service related.
[00:25:07] You know it's something that I really haven't thought all that much about to be honest with you.
[00:25:12] But you will now.
[00:25:13] Yeah I guess I will now.
[00:25:15] I enjoy doing it.
[00:25:17] Yeah.
[00:25:18] I think you know I kind of stepped into it because the the last Bible study leader was Marcus Poncoe you know retired school teacher of 35 years when his wife started becoming ill he he rightly you know look at his location as husband this is where I need to be taking care of her and we needed somebody to lead the Bible so I said okay I'll do it for a couple weeks.
[00:25:42] I'd kind of pinch hit firm a few other times I was like okay I can do this and never thinking that here almost eight years later I'd still be doing it but I enjoy it.
[00:25:52] But yeah at some point I probably do need to think about that because I can't do it forever Caleb as he gets older you know I might need some time on Saturday where I can't be there every weekend so we'll kind of wait and see how things go on that but um.
[00:26:08] Well I would encourage not just you but the other men in the journeymen to be thinking about and this relates this relates to in some part to number one where you got asked which is I suspect why Pastor Shackman you wanted us to talk about this.
[00:26:28] Yes.
[00:26:29] But to involve young men and do what we can to get now we're gonna this is being recorded on the fourth of April in the year of our Lord 2024 so it probably won't be published before but we're doing we're deliberately doing beginning this at the end of this month.
[00:26:48] An event called act like men where we are very much trying to get men and younger men together involved in this is an effort.
[00:26:58] Shoulder to shoulder doing stuff.
[00:27:00] Learning stuff praying together and doing stuff together both service and fun.
[00:27:06] Both service and fun and just being together yep still kind of working out the details on that hopefully well that's okay.
[00:27:12] Yeah hopefully we got a couple weeks yet so hopefully we get some more signups and stuff like that but we'll see how it goes.
[00:27:18] So I would encourage you as as a leader in the journeymen to be observant of what's going on and in what look at some of these younger men and boys and just keep your eye open.
[00:27:36] You know like the opportunity to invite them to be the the current version of the 15 year old you right and you know what I have a feeling that that person that's going to end up succeeding me at some point isn't here yet.
[00:27:51] Um could I do think I think that a lot of the men that are we're going to that are going to come out of this congregation most likely will do a lot of good but not maybe at St. Paul's I mean I'm not at the congregation I grew up at a lot of people that I know aren't so I can I can see that you know that what we're doing is going to benefit somebody else and hopefully what somebody
[00:28:13] else is doing is going to benefit us in that same way. It's been a great it's been a great joy for me to watch my older children as they have left home because I have one under roof and three outside it's it is I'm glad you mentioned that is a it is and I'll say it I'm particularly
[00:28:31] thankful and proud that my oldest who's now married that she and her husband are active members of their congregation in Fort Wayne Indiana. I'm very I'm very proud that my Lutheran school teacher son Aiden is an active member of the congregation where he's serving is
[00:28:48] not just a job for him he recognizes this is a call to serve and and I'm and I'm very thankful and proud that my college daughter Phelan is very active in her campus ministry at Indiana University and and very involved at twenty on the call committee because they're
[00:29:05] in the process of calling an imposter right now and you know part they're they were asked and they're stepping up to do what is necessary and in the in the life of the church and but you you know you need to ask those people to come and help
[00:29:22] I mean even the time when I was was taken a break I wasn't completely disconnected you know we had we had to call somebody sitting to my my my left over here and I was asked to be on his call committee. You know so it's
[00:29:35] on the call committee that led to so it's so it's your fault. Yeah partly I'm one tenth of blame so yeah.
[00:29:45] I'll take it David thank you for joining us and sharing your perspective on life and love and other mysteries with us. Pleasures all yours indeed and listeners we invite you to tune in again here for Christ and all things.
[00:30:05] For show notes and other information about Christ in all things visit Christ in all things dot org comments may be emailed to comments at Christ in all things dot org. We're thankful to provide Christ in all things to you as a gift, but it's not free to produce and distribute so if you'd like to help us make Christ in all things a self supporting
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[00:31:38] For more information about St. Paul's visit SPLCO.org email us at info at SPLCO.org or the old fashioned way give us a call 262-567-5001 intro and outro music setting by Joseph Hurl copyright 1998 Concordia Publishing House used with permission.