Chief of sinners. Child of God. Pastor Harrison Goodman preaches Christ crucified as a light that shines in darkness and a hope for the hopeless. As content executive, he helps to make these same gifts known online by employing the many voices and talents of our brothers and sisters in Christ. He believes that while the internet cannot replace Word and Sacrament ministry, it doesn’t need to try. How he came to be a Christian, a husband, and a father (let alone a Pastor) is a great story.
[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to Christ In All Things, a conversation about meaning and purpose. It's based on a
[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_02]: verse from the Bible, Colossians chapter 1 verse 17 which says, Christ is before all
[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: things and in him all things hold together. Christ In All Things is a listening ear into
[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: conversations about receiving and giving the love and hope of Christ. These conversations
[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_02]: are an invitation because as much as you'll hear and as much as we enjoy having them,
[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_02]: digital media operates from a distance. And that's not what's best for us with
[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_01]: God or with one another. So thanks for listening and if you're in the neighborhood, we invite
[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: you to participate in person in the life that finds its epicenter at St. Paul's Lutheran
[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Church 210 East Pleasant Street in O'Connor, Wisconsin. Welcome back to Christ In All Things
[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: listeners. It's a bit of a different show. My name is Pastor Jason Schockman. I am
[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_02]: flying solo, but we're going to have some fun anyway. Maybe too much fun. With me is
[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_02]: a friend of the Reverend Harrison Goodman, Harrison Allen Goodman, full name.
[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_02]: That's me.
[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_02]: That's you. Harrison, how do you and I know each other?
[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_00]: We met in the Dominican Republic.
[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_00]: We weren't even in the States.
[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: No, it was a small world in a big sense. It was fun though.
[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_02]: It was. So we met internationally, which means we have an international friendship. Does that
[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_02]: make us men of international mystery?
[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm going to take anything that I can to boost my own accord here. Absolutely it does.
[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: All right. So Harrison, you are the content director for Hire Things,
[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_02]: which is a fun and yet decidedly Lutheran ministry or service to the Missouri Senate
[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Church body as a whole. That's how you were in the Dominican Republic in the first place.
[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: We eventually ended up putting on a VBS with some young adults and spent a lot of great time
[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_00]: down there. It was a great time.
[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And since we have met in the Dominican Republic, you have been pretty active at Hire Things.
[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_02]: You guys have been churning out a lot of stuff.
[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It keeps us busy. Hire Things content. You can find us on YouTube, on Instagram,
[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Facebook if you're a little bit older. We're even on the TikTok. I think we do something
[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_00]: like 500 videos a year, 365 daily devotions. We have high school Bible studies, a vacation
[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Bible school curricula. We have a confirmation curricula. It keeps us out of trouble.
[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Or causing some.
[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Depending on how you look at it, yeah, that's fair.
[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_02]: All right. And you're here with us in O'Connor Walk. We're not doing this virtually.
[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_00]: No, we're face to face. I never get to do podcast face to face. So I'm really excited
[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_02]: about this. Yeah. And honestly, this is how we prefer it here. We talk about it in our
[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_02]: intro, in our outro that the epicenter of our life together is what happens in the sanctuary here at
[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: 210 East Pleasant Street. We went to go see those sanctuaries just a little bit ago.
[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: That's beautiful.
[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So you got a chance to see it and hear it a bit. And listeners, the date today is May 18th.
[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_02]: This probably won't get launched until well after this. But if you're here at church,
[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, the 18th or the 19th of May in the year of our Lord 2024, well then you get to hear
[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Pastor Goodman deliver the word of God.
[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_02]: That's great.
[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_02]: He is guest preaching for us this weekend here at St. Paul's, which is a multiple thanks
[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_02]: from our end, but also a joy that we get to share in this work that God does
[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_02]: through not just hire things, but through your office as a preacher.
[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_00]: God be praised. It's just an honor to be here.
[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Well, we love it. So thanks for being here. It gives me a break from the pulpit, although
[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that I necessarily need a break from the pulpit because I have O'Donnell
[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_02]: to give me a break from the pulpit. And then coming up this summer, he's going
[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_02]: to give me a little break from the pulpit anyway because I'm going to do some focus writing.
[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Nice. I hear you diving into something here.
[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. No biggie.
[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to work on putting a really big dent in my dissertation for my doctorate of ministry.
[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_02]: That's awesome.
[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Which many folks around here are aware of. As we are engaged in some strategic planning
[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_02]: as a congregation, yeah, they're going to be helping me gather data and all kinds of fun stuff
[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_02]: as we go into it.
[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's just going to happen right at home then. That's even easier.
[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the whole doctorate of ministry thing is meant to be a home-brewed, homegrown kind of thing.
[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. It's actually a doctorate. And I don't mean to say this despairingly,
[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_00]: but a doctorate with a purpose because like even as it's coming together,
[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_00]: you know exactly what you're aiming it at. It's not just I want to be called doctor and
[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_00]: then order at restaurants so that when people bring me my food, I can say
[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_00]: just what the doctor ordered.
[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Did you catch that folks?
[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: That was, that was...
[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_02]: That was as bad of a dad joke as I think I've ever shared.
[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. I was waiting for the laugh track.
[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Man, are we right at home?
[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm laughing in my head.
[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you are. You know, I'm on the wrong page for the laugh track.
[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_02]: That's okay.
[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it didn't deserve one.
[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I probably would have given you at least a little bit of this.
[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_02]: There you go.
[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Nice.
[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Applause with some ruckus cheering. That works.
[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And just in case you missed it folks, that was meant to be a joke.
[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Nice.
[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. So we do a little bit of that here at Christ in all things,
[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_02]: but more importantly than any of it, we want to talk Harrison about your name
[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and who God has made you and how he's made you that man.
[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's start with your name.
[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Harrison, which I stole from my dead grandpa, at least as how I like to say it.
[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_00]: My grandpa passed away about two years before I was born.
[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And my dad really wanted to name me after him. His name was Harry.
[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Mom figured I would have gotten made fun of in school.
[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Fortunately, my personality took care of that, so my name didn't have to.
[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time they settled on Harrison.
[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's Hera grandson. It doesn't quite work, but Harrison.
[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So son of Harry, but it's actually grandson of Harry.
[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's a really comical story that goes along with why you are named what you are named.
[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_00]: How about Alan? That's your middle name.
[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_00]: That is a name again, my grandfather's middle name, my father's middle name, mine, and now my son's.
[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're just handing it down the road.
[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully one of us will do something with it. I'm just hoping.
[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_00]: What's it mean?
[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. You were looking it up as we sat down.
[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Like it was just always my dad's and my grandpa's.
[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. And yours and now your son's.
[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So four generations of men who have the same name and nobody knows what it means.
[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, maybe they do. I'm just like, let's give them some credit.
[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. So there's a lot of different routes. A lot of different ways this can go.
[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_02]: It's got everything from Gaelic Irish roots. It actually has some Hebrew roots too, which...
[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Might work a little better since we're Jewish and all.
[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. So that's going to be part of the second half of the conversation, I'm sure.
[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. So I'm going to go with God's love is kind of where it comes into the Hebrew root,
[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_02]: right? From the Gaelic Irish, all that stuff you get. Handsome, strong.
[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I miss those. No.
[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Those don't really apply to you.
[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_02]: No.
[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So...
[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It's got to be the other one.
[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. So we're going to go with God's love.
[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_02]: How about Harrison? It means son of Harry, but I think there's another name meaning there.
[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's one that's more in line with your Hebrew roots.
[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: God's golden strength. So golden strength of God's love, Goodman.
[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Should get that on a name tag.
[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_02]: What does Goodman mean?
[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_00]: It's usually just a standard that I fail to live up to.
[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: A luthern of you.
[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Oh, people make that joke and it's like, oh, I can't wait to disappoint you now.
[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_00]: That'll be fun for both of us.
[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: If you are sitting in the room with us, then boy, the laughs don't stop.
[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're listening, please keep laughing with along with us.
[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_02]: You can just start laughing. That's fine.
[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: The jokes are going to come quick and furious, and I'm going to do my best to be
[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: not the guy that adds to that. Master of a household, husband is what it means.
[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Good thing you live up to that one. Or sharing your name with your son would be a little awkward.
[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I suppose. I have to fight.
[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that whole being a Lutheran pastor thing would be challenging as well.
[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I suppose.
[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_02]: If you had a kid without the whole being a good husband thing.
[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. I think there's something in the book about that.
[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: In the book. Not just that one. I mean, there's something in
[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_02]: lots of books about that whole like Six Commandment thing and being a pastor.
[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, fair enough.
[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Right? Yeah. Those two things go together.
[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I suppose.
[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Not doing one well kind of gets you not a part of the other.
[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that tends to be the way.
[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. In the Missouri Senate anyway.
[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's a place for a talk about it that if Christ is the bridegroom and the church
[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: is the bride in a lot of ways to stand in Christ's stead. You're woefully in up for
[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_00]: two vocations now because if you really want to measure yourself as a husband,
[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_00]: it gets to be a really scary walk with the law.
[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Every day.
[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I know. And then you get to actually be so not now just take care of Christ's bride.
[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But we do mean it though at the same time because sin breaks stuff.
[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_00]: There's that awful little truth that we don't want to acknowledge but to struggle with with a family
[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_00]: does mean that at the end of the day, it doesn't mean that you can't be a part of God's family.
[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean there's no forgiveness for you.
[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean there's no love for your mercy.
[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But it might mean that this particular vocation might not be helpful for those around you.
[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_02]: For those around you or for the body of Christ.
[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Or for you.
[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Or for you. And that is maybe something, maybe that's something somebody should spend some
[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_02]: time talking about. Maybe not you and I right now but at some point, boy, that'd be a really
[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: interesting conversation like when is standing in the stead and by the command of Christ in
[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_02]: this office that we're called to, when is that maybe not a good thing for the guy who's
[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: thinking he needs to stand in it?
[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, if you look at the level of burnout among clergy, I think that we're sort of
[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: going to have to have that conversation sooner rather than later.
[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, it's one of those really scary things because I mean, the first Timothy line
[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_00]: that we sort of alluded to actually just starts out by saying above reproach.
[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a terrifying thing that cannot happen in the law alone.
[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_00]: It cannot be a law statement.
[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Though the law will only bring reproach and you who don't fulfill it will only bear
[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: reproaches but there's also a little bit of stuff in the Psalter about who bears our
[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_00]: reproaches.
[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think I've read some of that.
[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_00]: We have to do this then that if I'm going to stand above reproach that this is
[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_00]: why we wear vestments as clergy too, that don't look at me.
[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm dressed up like the table and I'm just as useful.
[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a reason that my personality or lack thereof should not be the thing
[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_00]: that carries us.
[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_00]: It should not be about me.
[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It has to be about what God will do on that table.
[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_00]: He'll feed you with his body and blood and what God will do through that sinner.
[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_00]: He'll speak forgiveness.
[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_00]: You mean it has to be about Jesus?
[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: It has to.
[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Otherwise, it's a cult.
[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Of personality.
[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but we're going to stand on cult.
[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: If you are worshiping a man and not the guy that the man is pointing to,
[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_00]: even if you belong to a godly congregation, what you have is not godly faith.
[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And that gets scary quick.
[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Here.
[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_00]: That's why I sin a lot and I just dissuade them of ever trying to deal with that even a little bit.
[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not on purpose.
[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It just is God doing good even amongst my evil.
[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right.
[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I just sin.
[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I like that.
[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to keep that as a quote.
[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I just sin a lot.
[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Practice makes perfect.
[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: We've been doing it since I was born.
[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Sadly.
[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Harrison, Allen Goodman, golden strength,
[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_02]: God's love, son of Harry amongst other things, good husband, maybe, but only by God's grace.
[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Good thing you got that whole like golden strength of God's love going before the whole
[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_02]: call to be a husband thing or we'd be toast.
[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So your name is actually befitting in a lot of ways.
[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's jump into part two then of that conversation and talk about what has made
[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_02]: you who you are.
[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Give me the top three to five and we don't have to rattle them down.
[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have them like here's the top three and then we can talk about them, that's fine.
[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I would start with baptism has made me who I am.
[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_00]: We have to go there and then from there my vocations.
[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_00]: It's one of those places where I think as Lutherans we have to speak
[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_00]: very decidedly against how the world would normally sort of classify us because
[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_00]: most of us are willing to sort of identify by either the things that were done to us
[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_00]: or the things we want to do to other people.
[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And that almost shapes the entirety of our identity.
[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_00]: What trauma have you endured and everybody in this world, well sin breaks stuff and so
[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_00]: you're going to get knocked around.
[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And oftentimes it's a lifelong sort of burden to bear.
[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_00]: But if God's promises are true then you are holy every day
[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and your identity doesn't come from what you have done or what has been done to you
[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_00]: but it comes from what has been done for you that Christ has named you holy
[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and worthy of love.
[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_00]: This was something I was late to the party with because we kind of talked about this.
[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I was raised Jewish.
[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And at the same time as you can sort of tell a convert story and say it was life changing,
[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that the simple reality is that even if you're not a convert and it happens to
[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: you as a baby, your baptism is the first thing that starts to shape who you are
[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and it has to be otherwise it's just a dangerous picture of well sin.
[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. So I get to talk about that a little bit this summer at the Higher Things Conference at
[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_02]: CUW aptly named which you'll be a part of as the content director.
[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So we get to hang out some more this summer, which won't be any fun at all.
[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Well make sure that it's no fun for the people around us as well then.
[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Only by our sense of humor, which is mutually twisted and scary but shared.
[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So you were raised Jewish.
[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a few ways to be Jewish, right?
[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and the same way there's just a few ways to be.
[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Culturally, right.
[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a few ways to be Lutheran.
[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Careful.
[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_02]: No I'm going to stand on it.
[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So you can be culturally Jewish, you can be nationally Jewish, you can be religiously Jewish.
[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Which blend were you?
[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So and I don't want to throw rocks but like you know you have sort of like
[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: your Christmas and Easter Christians.
[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I was that kind of Jew.
[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_00]: We were culturally Jewish and we would go to temple when my grandma nagged my dad enough.
[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was sort of the extent of it.
[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it was a big part of my identity but I didn't necessarily know what that identity meant.
[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_00]: In the same way that like you don't want to say the people who come into your doors on
[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Christmas in Easter are not Christians.
[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Have they received God's word?
[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Do they believe it?
[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot you can talk about as far as practice,
[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_00]: as far as what's been healthy and what is not.
[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But you also probably don't want to ask those people to explain the Athanasian Creed.
[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And in the same way.
[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure I want to ask an every week church order to try to explain the Athanasian Creed.
[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Well so that the problem is like especially in the Lutheran Church there's usually not a lot of
[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_00]: people raised Jewish running around and so I get to be told to field all the questions.
[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And that tends to go poorly because like I can tell you my experience of Passover
[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_00]: but like my people ask what kind of Jew are you?
[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll say let me explain my upbringing with a story.
[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Passover is on the lunar calendar sort of like Easter which is why you get to see the
[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Charlton Heston movie on TV just before Holy.
[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_00]: That was ours first.
[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyway go ahead make a joke.
[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I was going to say folks if you're one of those families like my family was growing up
[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_02]: that wherever you gather as a family on Easter the Ten Commandments Charlton
[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Heston movie gets put on the screen and it plays in the background and most of it gets
[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_02]: ignored and there's a few parts that people pay attention to.
[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_02]: We had that too.
[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to challenge you if you're a dear listener next time that movie comes on open
[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_02]: your Bible and just try to follow along in the timeline of what's happening on the screen
[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_02]: with what actually happens in the Bible.
[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I guarantee you, I guarantee you, you will never watch that movie the same way again.
[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Never.
[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Fair enough.
[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Just like if you want to watch The History of the World Part II by Mel Brooks you should
[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02]: do that with your Bible open and you'll never watch it the same way again.
[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_00]: For better or for worse.
[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Indeed.
[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So anyway it's Passover.
[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Passover this particular year fell on my uncle's birthday and he skipped Seder so that he could
[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_00]: go get ribs and hang on.
[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, that's right.
[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Ribs.
[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Steak ribs?
[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_00]: No.
[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a good tasting kind.
[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_00]: But grandma was a little perturbed and if you're doing the Seder meal the head of the
[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_00]: household which at this point in time was my father will drink five cups of wine throughout
[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_00]: the night so basically dad got roasted and started then making fun of my uncle who skipped
[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Seder and grandma got so mad we never did Seder again as a family and that explains
[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_00]: my Jewish upbringing I think in a nutshell.
[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So I knew there was a god but I didn't necessarily know anything about him.
[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I'm a little befuddled but we'll keep going.
[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So you have.
[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll go into my world.
[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_02]: It's okay.
[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So you have a culturally Jewish background sort of.
[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Sort of.
[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sort of is a great way to end almost anything I've said.
[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Except the whole who you are in your baptism that's definitive.
[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Even there so I'm a saint and then you use how are you measuring this?
[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is that day of wrestling with sin.
[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I am absolutely but also absolutely a sinner.
[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But you said something very important there that before you got to the end of
[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_02]: that phrase that I want to make sure the listener picks up.
[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You said it depends on how you measure that.
[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Anytime in Dear Listener that you are measuring something,
[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: you have stepped into the world of the law.
[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_02]: You're not dealing with the gospel and its gifts anymore.
[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_02]: You're dealing with what you can do, attain, accomplish or measure.
[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're trying to figure out who you are and how well you're doing at it,
[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're talking about being better, you're measuring that's law.
[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: By definition, that's not gospel and that's not the center of who you are.
[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_02]: However, it tends to be how we identify who we are.
[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: One way or another by measuring, not by talking about it in the terms of giftedness.
[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is a dynamic distinction that we should probably make at some point more clearly
[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_02]: here on Christ in all things.
[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Because the point of our conversations with one another is not only to get to know you a little,
[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_02]: but to see how God and Christ is working by his giftedness,
[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_02]: in his working for you, in you and through you, for your good.
[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Right?
[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So you were raised culturally Jewish of some kind, but we're not going to measure how that was.
[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_02]: It just was.
[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Which in some ways really shaped how you came into the Christian faith.
[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I imagine.
[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_00]: How?
[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: The catechism is kind of the short answer.
[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I cannot by my own reason or strength believe.
[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was in college and I wanted to prove all religion dumb so I could keep doing dumber
[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_00]: things.
[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would talk to people.
[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_02]: You notice the measurement there?
[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Dumb and dumber.
[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not just a Jim Carrey movie.
[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a brilliant movie, but that's neither here nor there.
[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So notice you go and you talk to people.
[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_00]: You talk to the Halal House and I talked to the Newman Center and I talked to Campus Crusade
[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_00]: for Christ and in all of it they sort of painted pictures of the world that you could
[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: poke holes in right from the beginning simply in that almost every single one of them started
[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: with an optimistic view and that would not work for me.
[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, because every single person in this world has faced at least a little bit of trauma by the
[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_00]: time they reach college.
[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Amen.
[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And so if you're going to just make your religion the chance to hide from that
[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_00]: then it is at best profoundly dishonest and if I'm going to be profoundly dishonest I'd
[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_00]: rather have more fun than with your religion.
[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And so instead of that eventually I walked into a Lutheran Church misery center
[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00]: campus ministry and we talked for a couple hours and I couldn't really take
[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_00]: issue with anything that he was saying as much as I wanted to.
[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_00]: He gave me a small catechism and The Spiritual Out of the Cross by Gene Edward Veith which is
[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_00]: a fantastic book.
[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Where'd you go to college?
[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Illinois State University.
[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Really?
[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Good good work whoever that pastor was.
[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Damon Jarovic, he is with the Lord now.
[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah so I read both of those that night came back with more questions and yeah yeah good book.
[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Just sort of tried to argue my way through it every time and he said look if you
[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_00]: actually want to know what we believe we've got this class it's called confirmation.
[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to join at the end but there's another girl taking it and she will.
[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I would invite you to sit in and sit in on church and just see and I would come to church
[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and sit in the back and I didn't know how a hymnal worked.
[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know how any of it worked I was terrified but like at the same time I wanted
[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: to at least understand because I had a pretty good feeling there was a god I just wish I
[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_00]: knew who was up there and the law in the gospel were proclaimed.
[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It was a challenge to get my head around and every class he would ask you know do you
[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: believe this and I would say well I don't know.
[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Good answer.
[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah I just didn't know and eventually I realized I think I do and he said we should get you
[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_00]: baptized and then God drugged me to the font and from there he also made me go to seminary
[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's been a ride.
[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_02]: He started introducing himself to you.
[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah wow kicking it introduces you make it sound very kind.
[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_00]: This is we don't have the god who sort of knocks gently.
[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_00]: We have the if you cannot by your own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ your Lord
[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_00]: or come to him but the Holy Spirit has called you by the gospel understand what that looks like.
[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_02]: If we actually believe that.
[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah he ropes you and tugs you in there kicking and screaming.
[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah because it's the last place we want to be.
[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Well if baptism is actually old Adam drowning I would run too like honestly it's not
[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_00]: even just from I wish I could do more dumber stuff but it is an utter loss of identity in
[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_00]: any other way but Christ.
[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Loss and gain.
[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_00]: No I mean but that's just it old Adam has to die so that new man can emerge in my
[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_00]: horizon we want both like I really just want to be me but like you know affirmed by Jesus.
[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I want him to get me if I were to like make a campaign or something but.
[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow if you're not paying attention that was beautiful.
[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm really glad you said that.
[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So the other the other thing you talked about was vocations.
[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah formed have formed you into who you are so part of that vocation is son grandson
[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_02]: as your family of origin shaped how you processed information how you question
[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_02]: things that were put in front of you.
[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Which I would suggest led you to question them the way you did as you got to college and started
[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_02]: looking at okay here's all these options somebody's got to have an answer.
[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Who's got a good answer and most people said well I got an answer and and most of those answers
[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: in fairness were yep here's God and you can be you.
[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Well no honestly a lot of more here's God and either you can be you or here's God and
[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_00]: you got to stop being you and that's terrifying too because if everything is really as sweet as
[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_00]: they would make the world sound if we would just lean into the God thing you got to really
[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_00]: wrestle with why the fact it still looks like it does and we still do the things we do to
[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_00]: not only each other but also ourselves.
[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_00]: You got to deal with the fact that the religious community is not above reproach and this
[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_00]: is something world loves to point out that that um yeah the church is full of sinners and
[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_00]: hypocrites yeah amen yeah and and like that's just it thanks be to God for it and and you got like
[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_00]: first recognized Jesus never actually like comes across a hypocrite and is like you know hey great
[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_00]: job with that you're doing your best um he always always calls it out but at the same time you
[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00]: get to flip that coin over and look at the other side like if you are a hypocrite it means
[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: that you believe in something bigger than yourself which doesn't sound so bad to the
[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_00]: faithful like if you think you are perfectly representing who your God is and you can't work
[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00]: like the fancy settings on your dishwasher your God is tiny your God is not impressive to me
[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_02]: get a better God I like to say that if if the God you believe in can fit in your 3.2
[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_02]: pound human brain yeah that's not a God worth worshiping right uh Harrison we are coming
[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_02]: up on our break here uh thanks so much for having this conversation it's kind of been
[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_02]: fast and furious and it's it's great it's fun to be here it is uh so folks we're gonna come back
[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_02]: in a little minute here uh and we'll look forward to seeing you on the next episode here at Christ in
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