Chief of sinners. Child of God. Pastor Harrison Goodman preaches Christ crucified as a light that shines in darkness and a hope for the hopeless. As content executive, he helps to make these same gifts known online by employing the many voices and talents of our brothers and sisters in Christ. He believes that while the internet cannot replace Word and Sacrament ministry, it doesn’t need to try. How he came to be a Christian, a husband, and a father (let alone a Pastor) is a great story.
[00:00:09] Welcome to Christ in All Things, a conversation about meaning and purpose.
[00:00:14] It's based on a verse from the Bible, Colossians 1, verse 17, which says,
[00:00:19] Christ is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
[00:00:23] Christ in All Things is a listening ear into conversations about receiving and giving the love and hope of Christ.
[00:00:30] These conversations are an invitation, because as much as you'll hear, and as much as we enjoy having them,
[00:00:37] digital media operates from a distance, and that's not what's best for us, with God or with one another.
[00:00:45] So, thanks for listening. And if you're in the neighborhood, we invite you to participate in person
[00:00:50] in The Life That Finds Its Epicenter at St. Paul's Lutheran Church, 210 East Pleasant Street in Oconomowoc, Wisconsin.
[00:01:07] Dear listener, welcome back to Christ in All Things. This is Pastor Jason Schockman, your host,
[00:01:12] sitting here having a conversation with our friend, the Reverend Harrison Goodman. Who grew up in what town?
[00:01:21] I grew up in Champaign, Illinois.
[00:01:22] In Champaign, Illinois. Okay, that works. So, middle America, flyover states.
[00:01:29] Midwestern or through and through.
[00:01:30] Yeah, Midwest through and through.
[00:01:30] I was born in Cleveland. They think they're East Coast. They're actually Midwest. It's disappointing to them.
[00:01:35] You're a Cleveland guy?
[00:01:36] Yeah, it's cross to bear.
[00:01:37] I didn't know that. Does that make you a Cleveland Browns fan?
[00:01:40] It's a cross to bear, yeah.
[00:01:42] Dude, you and I—
[00:01:43] I see it up there. I saw it.
[00:01:44] Yeah, buddy.
[00:01:45] Okay.
[00:01:45] Okay, so—
[00:01:45] We'll talk later.
[00:01:46] As we get in or come back to the five things or three to five things that really shaped who you are,
[00:01:53] we started with baptism.
[00:01:55] Yeah.
[00:01:55] And just the overwhelming identification given to you in your baptism that changed everything.
[00:02:03] That right there in and of itself is huge.
[00:02:06] Right.
[00:02:06] Again, I've done whole presentations on your baptismal identity. I'm doing one this summer at Higher Things.
[00:02:15] In fact, that was the topic or is the topic of the entire conference is who am I?
[00:02:22] So, we'll get into that. But you also talked about vocation.
[00:02:26] Yeah.
[00:02:27] And I brought up being a vocation of a son, a grandson raised in a culturally Jewish home and how that impacted you.
[00:02:36] You mentioned meeting people that were going to this church that you were going to and that they were just honest about our sinfulness and our need for redemption and the forgiveness that Christ freely gives us.
[00:02:53] And I—off air then, I said, so you had mentioned a young lady that was taking the adult confirmation class that you jumped into,
[00:03:01] where at the end of every class you were like, I don't know if I believe this.
[00:03:04] Right.
[00:03:04] Totally great answer. Honest answer. And I asked, so was your wife that other lady?
[00:03:10] No, she was not.
[00:03:11] No, she was not.
[00:03:12] No, she was born and raised Lutheran.
[00:03:13] Okay.
[00:03:13] Yeah.
[00:03:14] So, she grew up in the Lutheran church, came to college.
[00:03:18] Went to campus ministry because you go to church on Sunday.
[00:03:21] Because that's what you do, right?
[00:03:23] Right. And so, you met her at church while you were going through this adult instruction?
[00:03:28] I knew her, but we didn't really start to talk until after I was baptized. She wanted to make sure it stuck.
[00:03:35] That's just classic.
[00:03:36] No, that's not a bad thing to actually care about.
[00:03:39] Right.
[00:03:40] We get so hung up on, we want to make sure that our future spouse shares our interests, but our core faith.
[00:03:47] Yeah.
[00:03:48] That might actually be worth it. She did a good thing there.
[00:03:51] Yeah. So, if you're listening and you're not married and you're thinking about getting married and the person that you're thinking about marrying doesn't have the same core faith as you?
[00:04:00] I'm not saying it won't work, but it's going to be a thing you have to talk about and it's going to be a thing that will pull one of you one direction or another.
[00:04:07] Yeah.
[00:04:07] It will. Like, it's the same thing as like if you meet somebody who just desperately, desperately, for some reason, wants to move to Canada.
[00:04:15] Like, just loves syrup and just needs to be around more syrup.
[00:04:21] But like, this is just...
[00:04:22] What are you on about, eh?
[00:04:25] Sorry.
[00:04:26] But here's the thing.
[00:04:28] Like, if you're dead set on just staying this side of the border where there's freedom, then you're going to have to at least talk about this.
[00:04:36] Yeah.
[00:04:36] Otherwise, at least one of you is going to be pulled one direction or another and there might be some tension that pops up.
[00:04:41] Yeah.
[00:04:41] So, in the same way, if this actually is...
[00:04:43] And to me, this is a core part of my identity.
[00:04:46] Even before I really understood just how core it was, this was how I was defined.
[00:04:51] I was named before the Lord as holy and worthy of love as his child adopted into his family.
[00:04:57] And that does shape our identity so much so that even when we don't realize it and we tug against it, the world itself, all of creation is going to start to sort of shove us back that way because God cares enough to sometimes smack us around a little bit to make sure that we actually need help.
[00:05:12] You mean he like disciplines the one he loves?
[00:05:14] Right.
[00:05:15] That's actually the...
[00:05:16] You don't yell at other people's kids at Target, do you?
[00:05:19] Well, it depends on the kid.
[00:05:20] That's how you get kicked out at Target.
[00:05:22] But if it's your kid, you just go for it.
[00:05:24] But that's actually the sign of love.
[00:05:26] There's a lot of kids that play in the street near my house that I don't yell at.
[00:05:29] But I yell at my kids because I don't want them to get hit by a car.
[00:05:33] It sounds mean.
[00:05:35] But in all honesty, it's so easy and especially societies like today where it's just almost considered a sign of love to leave people alone.
[00:05:44] But then you look at every sort of parable where love is expressed and well, absolutely pass by on the other side of the road while somebody is playing in the street or beaten and left for dead in the middle of the street if there was like a Samaritan or something.
[00:05:57] You mean to say like love is a verb?
[00:06:00] Yes.
[00:06:01] Hmm.
[00:06:02] Interesting concept.
[00:06:03] It's going to shape the rest of those vocations too, right?
[00:06:06] Because like this is where we start to go with this is, you know, what are the things that shaped me?
[00:06:10] And I sat down with this and I desperately, desperately wanted to be known as somebody who was cool because I deeply, deeply am not.
[00:06:16] And so like I wanted to start like, well, punk rock shaped me.
[00:06:19] And well, no, I just wish that it would because when somebody looked at me, they could at least see something other than a kid who is afraid of everything and anxious all the time.
[00:06:27] And weird.
[00:06:28] But then you can find an identity there.
[00:06:30] And in the same way, like you grow up and like you're going to get married and like that's great.
[00:06:35] And you sit down with premarital counseling.
[00:06:36] And I know it's going on just down the hall.
[00:06:39] But at the same time, like I've also just sort of by wearing the clerical found it to be in a lot of ways a profound waste of time.
[00:06:45] And like hear me when I say it the right way, not that it shouldn't be talked about, but like honestly start with confession absolution because if you want to get married to somebody, you sinned along the way.
[00:06:55] And that's good that that because if you weren't at least attracted to each other, again, you're setting yourself up for a bad time.
[00:07:00] But then also get married, spend two years and then talk about what it is because marriage itself shapes you into what you are as a spouse, not the wanting to get married.
[00:07:08] Yeah.
[00:07:08] I had no idea what I was getting into when I got married and that's good.
[00:07:12] And apparently your premarital counseling didn't prepare you for that.
[00:07:15] I thought – I mean he did his best.
[00:07:16] All of us do our best.
[00:07:17] But at the same time, like it's like trying to explain the color orange to a blind man.
[00:07:21] Right.
[00:07:21] Like it's just – it's not going to work.
[00:07:24] Right.
[00:07:24] And so the vocation shapes who you are, not your desire to be in the vocation.
[00:07:29] And that's a good thing too because there are days where you don't want to do it.
[00:07:32] And that's okay because God will still accomplish it through you.
[00:07:35] Vocation is not the burdens that you have to help other people.
[00:07:38] Vocation is the things that God wants to do for other people through you.
[00:07:42] And that means your will can be faltering.
[00:07:44] Your will can struggle.
[00:07:45] Your will can be a sinful will.
[00:07:46] God will still work good.
[00:07:47] So say that again.
[00:07:48] Your vocation shapes who you are.
[00:07:50] Yeah.
[00:07:51] Not –
[00:07:52] Not your desire to be in the vocation.
[00:07:54] Which like when did you know you wanted to be married?
[00:07:57] And like there's not – for young men, that's a crass question to ask.
[00:08:01] And we ask it with ministry too.
[00:08:02] Like how did you know you wanted to be a pastor?
[00:08:04] I didn't.
[00:08:05] I didn't.
[00:08:06] I was like halfway through seminary.
[00:08:07] I ran from it every step.
[00:08:10] And that's a deeply impious answer because everybody likes the, well, I knew when I was six.
[00:08:15] Yeah.
[00:08:16] No.
[00:08:16] No.
[00:08:16] I got tired of waking up on the beach smelling like fish guts with a mouth full of sand and said, fine, I'll go to Nineveh.
[00:08:24] I mean seminary.
[00:08:26] That's how I tell my story of how I ended up at the seminary.
[00:08:29] I didn't want to be a pastor.
[00:08:32] But –
[00:08:33] God makes pastors.
[00:08:34] He does.
[00:08:34] God makes husbands and God makes children.
[00:08:36] He does.
[00:08:37] Okay.
[00:08:38] Children.
[00:08:39] So we don't get lost in the weeds here so that the listeners can actually enjoy this conversation instead of just being, what are they talking about?
[00:08:45] This isn't about me enjoying this conversation.
[00:08:46] That's for listeners.
[00:08:48] It is true that, Harrison, you do a lot of interviews, a lot of podcast stuff, a lot of digital media.
[00:08:56] And it's not often that you get to do it face-to-face across the table.
[00:08:59] This is better.
[00:08:59] This is actually much better.
[00:09:01] Yeah.
[00:09:02] And this is something that we here at Christ in All Things wanted to make a cornerstone of these conversations people get to listen to.
[00:09:10] They're just pastoral conversations.
[00:09:11] Right.
[00:09:12] And we're having them face-to-face and we happen to have mics in front of us, but they're so fun to listen to.
[00:09:20] You have mentioned a few times now, kids.
[00:09:22] Mm-hmm.
[00:09:23] You have in your keeping –
[00:09:26] In my keeping, I have two with us.
[00:09:27] You have two.
[00:09:28] And the way you say that lends me to ask another question.
[00:09:31] We have four, but two have gone on.
[00:09:33] Okay.
[00:09:34] Okay.
[00:09:34] So I have three that I was allowed to keep and one that is with Jesus.
[00:09:38] And when Jesus comes back, I'm really looking forward to meeting Asher.
[00:09:41] Yeah.
[00:09:42] That's a beautiful name.
[00:09:43] Hebrew for blessing.
[00:09:44] That's wonderful.
[00:09:44] We messed up.
[00:09:46] So what had happened was we wanted to teach to my young children that this was a person.
[00:09:54] Yeah.
[00:09:54] They had a brother or a sister somewhere.
[00:09:56] And that when their brother or sister was born, mom and dad would give them a name.
[00:10:01] But for right now, you give them a name.
[00:10:03] Oh, boy.
[00:10:03] And so my children with the Lord who are at rest until the resurrection are Bertie and Bubbles because I had toddlers.
[00:10:13] Okay.
[00:10:13] They just saw stuff out the window and went for it.
[00:10:16] So.
[00:10:17] So.
[00:10:18] That's kind of how my dog got his name is we let the kids name the dog and Buddy Wolfster became the dog's name.
[00:10:24] Oh, nice.
[00:10:25] Yeah.
[00:10:25] My dog's name is Goob.
[00:10:26] Goob.
[00:10:27] Yeah.
[00:10:27] He's dumb.
[00:10:28] He's a goober.
[00:10:29] Yeah.
[00:10:30] It works.
[00:10:30] All right.
[00:10:31] So two with you, two with the Lord.
[00:10:35] Mm-hmm.
[00:10:35] And how old are your kids?
[00:10:37] My son is 11 and my daughter is nine.
[00:10:41] So how did becoming a father, how did stepping into that vocation or rather being given that vocation, how did that shape you?
[00:10:49] I mean, do you want the law answer or the gospel answer?
[00:10:51] Both.
[00:10:52] Because there's two.
[00:10:53] So the law answer is that selfishness was ripped out of my hands.
[00:10:57] Yeah.
[00:10:57] Um, because you can want to be selfish all day long, but if there is a little person literally screaming in your face and pooping, then like you got, it has to be addressed.
[00:11:06] It just has to.
[00:11:07] Um, and the law will do this thing for you.
[00:11:10] Um, at the same time though, there is a gospel answer.
[00:11:14] Um, you okay, buddy?
[00:11:16] I'm having a great time, man.
[00:11:18] Okay.
[00:11:19] There is, there's a gospel answer.
[00:11:21] And that is that God has actually allowed even a person as selfish and sinful as me to shape a young life for good.
[00:11:26] Uh, I brought them to the font.
[00:11:28] I have taught them the faith.
[00:11:29] I have, I have loved them and fed them and cleaned up said things.
[00:11:33] Um.
[00:11:33] Said poop.
[00:11:34] Yeah.
[00:11:34] Um, but, but in all of it though, uh, who you are, it's, it's a name that's given to you.
[00:11:40] And, and I know that because like, I didn't, you can't, it's especially true with fatherhood.
[00:11:44] Like ask strangers to call you dad.
[00:11:46] It's weird.
[00:11:47] Especially when they add the, the why at the end.
[00:11:49] No, that's just inappropriate.
[00:11:50] I know because the whole thing is profoundly uncomfortable.
[00:11:53] Oh yeah.
[00:11:53] Um, and, but this is actually what it is with parentage too.
[00:11:56] Like the, the name dad is, is a profoundly special first name that you have been given by the Lord.
[00:12:01] And, and a profoundly special name.
[00:12:04] He's invited you to call himself.
[00:12:06] Right.
[00:12:07] But that, that's actually what, what shapes it.
[00:12:09] And that's why the name is, is so wild.
[00:12:11] And there are not a lot of people in this world that get to call me dad without it being weird.
[00:12:14] I have, I have two with me.
[00:12:16] Yeah.
[00:12:16] Who get to say dad and it's magic words that this is actually that the shaping of your vocation, that your first name, um, you're Jason, but your first name to so many people here is just.
[00:12:24] Pastor.
[00:12:25] Yeah.
[00:12:25] Yeah.
[00:12:26] And that, that's how they know you.
[00:12:27] Um, and you're right.
[00:12:29] They can get to know you, the, the Cleveland Browns fan and the, the, the, the, yeah.
[00:12:32] The, the jokes and the socks, there's, there's a lot of stuff.
[00:12:35] It's always fun to talk to you because like, it's never the same conversation twice.
[00:12:39] It's always enlightening.
[00:12:40] It's always uplifting and joyful.
[00:12:41] Like whether we're sitting in the roof at the Dominican Republic or here in your office, it's always fun.
[00:12:47] But to actually have a first name to call on when you're in need.
[00:12:51] Yeah.
[00:12:51] You know what I mean?
[00:12:52] Like when, when push comes to shove, nobody wants to hear about Art Modell when they're in the hospital.
[00:12:57] Nobody ever probably period, but like you, you have special words when you go to see them in the hospital.
[00:13:02] Yeah.
[00:13:03] Like the Lord be with you.
[00:13:05] And with thy spirit.
[00:13:05] It's beautiful.
[00:13:06] And in the same way, your kids, you have the same liturgy and it's, it's when you get home and everybody's family liturgy is a little bit weird.
[00:13:12] Yeah.
[00:13:13] Um, it's a little bit different and that's, that's fine.
[00:13:14] But I have ways that I talk to my kids and they talk to me that are just, they're, they're patterned and they're comforting.
[00:13:19] And they're unique to you.
[00:13:20] Yeah.
[00:13:21] Yeah.
[00:13:21] Yeah.
[00:13:22] Vocation is given.
[00:13:23] Your identity is given.
[00:13:24] And that's good because now it's not yours to fulfill.
[00:13:26] It's God to fulfill through you.
[00:13:28] Yeah.
[00:13:28] And that's part, part of the reason why we phrase the question the way we do.
[00:13:32] Yeah.
[00:13:32] Right.
[00:13:32] Is what are the, when we say, what are the top three to five things that formed you?
[00:13:37] It's passive.
[00:13:37] Yeah.
[00:13:38] Into the person that you are.
[00:13:39] It's not you shaping your experience.
[00:13:42] It's, it's God and his work.
[00:13:44] It's Christ working in the midst of all things, whether they're a bump in the road or a, or a, a talent, skill, gift ability that you've had for some time.
[00:13:57] Whether it's a conversion experience that changed you or the slow plotting of the faithful Lutheran that just, it from their baptism on, you know, at like whatever six days old it was.
[00:14:13] That's the right way to do it, by the way.
[00:14:15] Just lives the faith.
[00:14:18] Yeah.
[00:14:18] As it's given to them.
[00:14:20] Right.
[00:14:20] Right.
[00:14:21] There's so much richness in all those gifts and all those things.
[00:14:26] We just love to sit back and listen to people talk about them.
[00:14:29] Right.
[00:14:29] And then point to how this is God and Christ working for your good.
[00:14:34] Right.
[00:14:35] So meeting your wife, how did you meet your wife?
[00:14:38] You met her at the campus ministry.
[00:14:40] Yeah.
[00:14:41] How, how did you decide that she was one you wanted to marry?
[00:14:45] She put up with me.
[00:14:47] She loved me fiercely and, and I loved her back.
[00:14:49] It was a place where again, like you, you, you don't sort of, I think make the decision, but you realize that the decision has been made.
[00:14:56] At least for me, like I've never had sort of like the scales from the eyes sky talk at you kind of thing.
[00:15:02] Right.
[00:15:02] But, but like you, you wake up one day and you're like, I don't deserve this.
[00:15:05] And I'm pretty sure it's going to break at some point because I'm me, but I have it.
[00:15:09] Cause I'm going to break it.
[00:15:10] Yeah.
[00:15:10] So let's, let's acknowledge it and, and, and try and lock it down or at least point to some kind of security.
[00:15:15] And, and these are the things that God gives you in, in vocation.
[00:15:18] They're the security of the things that I want to keep doing this, even though you're, you're you.
[00:15:21] Yeah.
[00:15:22] Yeah.
[00:15:23] And here God says, here's this thing.
[00:15:26] Here's this gift.
[00:15:27] Here's this institution that, that is called holy matrimony.
[00:15:32] It's holy because God gave it to us.
[00:15:34] Right.
[00:15:34] And, and oh yeah, by the way, inside of this thing, there's all this joy that I'm giving you.
[00:15:40] Right.
[00:15:40] As you share a life with someone else, as you in fact become one flesh kind of the way that Christ is with the church.
[00:15:50] Uh, and so you find that again, as you said, that selfishness is ripped out of your hands because now your vocation is to serve her.
[00:16:01] Right.
[00:16:01] The way Christ served the church.
[00:16:02] And what's beautiful is like, you're in the middle of it and you actually find out that it's a gift.
[00:16:06] Yeah.
[00:16:06] It's not a burden.
[00:16:07] Right.
[00:16:08] Like she is hands down the best thing that's ever happened to me.
[00:16:10] And day by day, I try and forget it.
[00:16:13] And like that, that vocation is, is reformed in you every day.
[00:16:17] Yeah.
[00:16:17] Um, because like, again, this, this identity stuff that we start to talk about day by day, like we want to make the identity me.
[00:16:23] So my ADHD is my identity.
[00:16:25] And, and so, because I can't pay attention, that's my identity.
[00:16:28] And that has to be unformed so that who I am can be reformed.
[00:16:31] I realized that I have the attention span of a goldfish, but at the same time, can I be loved as if I were a functioning adult?
[00:16:38] Um, and as it turns out, I can, I have a, I have a wife.
[00:16:42] Um, and, and from there, uh, we, we get to have that again, sort of rebuilt every day so that, that, that marriage vow is, is not sort of renewed by you every day, but, but strengthened by the Lord every day.
[00:16:51] He daily drowns old Adam, daily raises up new man, daily continues to paint a picture of how Christ sees the bride of the church daily washed and without blemish or spot.
[00:17:02] Or wrinkle or any such thing.
[00:17:04] Beautiful.
[00:17:04] Somebody should write a book.
[00:17:06] Uh, I think Paul did.
[00:17:08] Put it in like the fifth chapter.
[00:17:10] Yeah.
[00:17:10] That'd be good.
[00:17:11] Kind of toward the end of the fifth chapter though.
[00:17:13] Cause it's like really gold.
[00:17:15] You don't want to bury it somewhere in the middle.
[00:17:17] Not like the Hebrew mind tends to bury the really important things right in the middle.
[00:17:21] Somebody should call the book like Leifesians or figure out something.
[00:17:25] Yeah.
[00:17:25] Nice.
[00:17:27] It's kind of, folks, this text from Ephesians five is one of the, what's known as sedes doctrinae.
[00:17:34] It's one of the seats of doctrine, the seats of the teaching about marriage that, that the Christian church has held through the ages, uh, in Ephesians five.
[00:17:44] And yeah, it's that text that uses that really buzzy word called submit.
[00:17:48] Uh, and it uses it a few times and it uses it in a really positive way.
[00:17:53] Uh, and we totally botch it because we tend to be selfish, selfish about the individual, about my identity, uh, and not the identity I've been given.
[00:18:03] Right.
[00:18:03] But I mean, even so we would not get the chance that that text also says, uh, it's not husband or wives submit to your husbands, but it's, it's wives submit to your husbands as the church submits to Christ.
[00:18:13] So there's a first picture of this that, that, that, that the second one should be painted in likeness to.
[00:18:19] And so look at yourself as a Christian, like what have you had to do for Jesus to love you?
[00:18:24] What, what, what is, what does it cost you?
[00:18:26] Yeah.
[00:18:27] What does he demand it of you?
[00:18:28] Nothing.
[00:18:29] What has he given you?
[00:18:30] Everything.
[00:18:31] That's the beauty of it.
[00:18:32] So, so to, to submit here means to hide behind.
[00:18:34] Yeah.
[00:18:35] Um, and, and you're right.
[00:18:36] Who's in charge?
[00:18:36] Me or Jesus?
[00:18:37] He's in charge.
[00:18:38] That that's fine.
[00:18:39] But if, if this understanding of marriage is some sort of like 1950s version of, of kitchen misogyny, it should be called the sin that it is.
[00:18:46] Yeah.
[00:18:46] It looks nothing different than Christ dying on the cross for the church.
[00:18:49] And, and when we talk about this, like we have to start with the picture that's been given, because if we try and paint the one that, that we would have, it's Adam and Eve fighting in the garden naked all over again.
[00:18:58] It's shameful.
[00:18:58] Except by the time they're fighting, they're not naked.
[00:19:00] They're covered in leaves.
[00:19:01] Mm-hmm.
[00:19:02] Because the first thing they do after they fall into sin is hide from each other.
[00:19:05] Right.
[00:19:06] You know?
[00:19:06] I mean, really.
[00:19:07] Yeah.
[00:19:08] They try to get divorced.
[00:19:09] Right away.
[00:19:09] Uh-huh.
[00:19:10] Right?
[00:19:10] Oh, well, my nakedness can't be with your nakedness, so cover yourself up and I'll cover myself up.
[00:19:15] I can't be seen by you.
[00:19:16] Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:16] It's vulnerable.
[00:19:17] Right.
[00:19:17] Right.
[00:19:18] And vulnerability can't happen anymore because our innocence is gone.
[00:19:21] Mm-hmm.
[00:19:22] And once that goes away, yeah, then it's tough.
[00:19:26] Mm-hmm.
[00:19:26] So what, I'm going to bring up one more vocation that we should talk about.
[00:19:31] Mm-hmm.
[00:19:31] Uh, we talked about the vocation of husband.
[00:19:34] We talked about the vocation of father.
[00:19:37] Uh, we've mentioned, but I want to talk about the vocation of pastor.
[00:19:42] Mm-hmm.
[00:19:42] How has this vocation you've been given, how has that shaped you other than you got a wealth
[00:19:51] of theological knowledge running around in your head that most people don't have?
[00:19:54] Yeah, I want to struggle with this one.
[00:19:57] And maybe it's Jonah.
[00:19:59] But I honestly think that it hasn't.
[00:20:01] Um, and hear me in this, um, in that the job of the pastor is not to be shaped, but it's
[00:20:07] to point to Jesus.
[00:20:08] Um, that the pastor is supposed to disappear behind the word and the sacraments.
[00:20:13] Um, he's the means to the means.
[00:20:15] And there, obviously, yes, that there is a great deal of shaping that goes into the formation
[00:20:22] for ministry.
[00:20:22] Uh, there's a great deal of demands upon the office of the ministry, uh, those who would
[00:20:28] hold the vocation.
[00:20:28] It's a, it's an honorable and noble thing that, that bears a little bit to talk about from,
[00:20:33] uh, Timothy.
[00:20:34] Uh, but at the same time, if, if you're actually focused on this the right way, uh, it doesn't
[00:20:39] shape you.
[00:20:40] It is simply Jesus there.
[00:20:42] And that's, that's the best pastor.
[00:20:44] Like you think about the worst pastors and they'll talk about how it shaped them, how
[00:20:47] it's made them what they are.
[00:20:49] And you talk about what's actually the best pastors.
[00:20:52] They're, they're humble because they don't want to talk.
[00:20:54] It's just Jesus.
[00:20:55] It's not about them.
[00:20:56] Jesus is here.
[00:20:58] It's about Jesus.
[00:20:59] Yeah.
[00:21:00] Yeah.
[00:21:00] Um, and so I'll regularly joke that, uh, the seminary installed a filter.
[00:21:08] I mean, at least on Sunday mornings.
[00:21:10] Um, but this is, this is the side of it.
[00:21:13] And like, this is something I've struggled with for years is like, does this mean you're not
[00:21:16] allowed to be you?
[00:21:17] Um, and does this mean that, that, uh, what's wrong with me is somehow even more profane?
[00:21:22] Yeah.
[00:21:23] And, and the, the law answer is yes, it is more profane.
[00:21:26] It is, it is that this, the overseer is held to a higher standard.
[00:21:29] It's the Bible verse.
[00:21:30] You're stuck.
[00:21:30] Um, but like at the gospel answer here is that you have a liturgy.
[00:21:34] Just say the words in black, do the words in red and recognize that God has promised
[00:21:38] to work here and you get to hide behind that.
[00:21:41] Yeah.
[00:21:41] I mean, all of the other vocations, like God works through you and you are sort of put forward
[00:21:45] so that you have that, that name.
[00:21:47] But, but, you know, to, to understand pastor the right way is, is simply he will bring
[00:21:52] me Jesus.
[00:21:53] Yeah.
[00:21:54] And that's, that's the thing we carve into our pulpits.
[00:21:56] That's, uh, you know, sir, we wish to see Jesus.
[00:21:59] And that means you can tell me what you did on your vacation, but you better quit, get to
[00:22:03] the point.
[00:22:03] And that, that point is that I'm a sinner that Jesus died for.
[00:22:06] Um, that the, the father has many things that, that he will do that, that shapes the
[00:22:11] children.
[00:22:12] So they will continue to look to him, that the, the husband the same way, but the pastor, I
[00:22:15] really think if you're doing it right, your pastor should be so forgettable because all
[00:22:19] you can see is Jesus.
[00:22:22] Except, um, we, we tell jokes and we have, we have a sense of humor that, that I think
[00:22:29] is a gift that God gives as well.
[00:22:31] Oh, sure.
[00:22:31] And, and that we're really dorks.
[00:22:35] Oh, 100%.
[00:22:36] Like we're good at being geeks and we're theological geeks at the worst.
[00:22:39] Uh, and we tell dad jokes and they're, those cause people to groan.
[00:22:44] Uh, but that's, that's God working for good.
[00:22:47] Cause like, I don't know where yours come from, but mine come from really deep seated
[00:22:50] anxiety.
[00:22:50] Um, that I'm just trying to shift attention away from anything that might be me.
[00:22:54] And the, the theology comes from just sort of a hunger for not being known as what I
[00:22:58] see in the mirror.
[00:22:59] Um, and in all of it, it, it's that, that idea that, that God would actually work good
[00:23:03] there so that, uh, I can look in the mirror and see first and foremost, a baptized child
[00:23:07] instead of me.
[00:23:08] And, and even that the awful things that I do to try and point away from me and, and silly
[00:23:13] jokes and dad jokes and whatever else is, is really just sort of God trying to, to set
[00:23:17] calm water so that he can preach.
[00:23:20] And that preaching isn't the joke.
[00:23:21] It's, it's the forgiveness of sins.
[00:23:23] And I think for me, the, the zeal, the passion and teaching, the, the, the animatedness that
[00:23:30] comes out when I'm in front of people.
[00:23:32] Uh, I, I think a lot of that comes from, I, I really love this stuff.
[00:23:38] Like, I really love this Jesus who gives me these things and who's, who's taught me this
[00:23:44] stuff over the years.
[00:23:45] And I really want people to go, Oh, that's cool.
[00:23:48] Or, Oh, that's new.
[00:23:49] Or I haven't heard that that way before, but that helps me see Jesus as the one who's doing
[00:23:55] the work and not me and not you pastor, but it, it really is Jesus doing it.
[00:24:00] Yeah.
[00:24:01] Right.
[00:24:01] So for me, I think a lot of that comes out of the, um, I, I know so many Lutherans that
[00:24:08] have heard the same thing for so long that they just kind of, Oh yeah.
[00:24:12] Yep.
[00:24:13] In fact, I, I had one, uh, one person tell me, you know, pastor, I could write your sermon
[00:24:17] every week.
[00:24:18] It's the same every week.
[00:24:20] It's, uh, we're God, God loves us.
[00:24:24] We're sinners.
[00:24:25] We screwed it up.
[00:24:26] God sent Jesus to fix it.
[00:24:28] Uh, Jesus is the one that makes it all better.
[00:24:30] So believe in Jesus.
[00:24:32] Jesus does it all right for you.
[00:24:33] Now go, uh, go screw it up again.
[00:24:37] Amen.
[00:24:38] Amen.
[00:24:39] Right.
[00:24:39] And I said, you're right.
[00:24:40] It's a good sermon.
[00:24:40] Right.
[00:24:41] And I said, you know what?
[00:24:42] You're right.
[00:24:43] You could, uh, the truth of the matter is you could do that every week.
[00:24:49] The question is why aren't you here to hear it?
[00:24:52] So, I mean, like, that's just it though.
[00:24:53] Like you tell your wife, you love her every, every, hopefully morning, every week.
[00:24:56] Well, I mean, I told her I loved her the day I married her.
[00:24:58] So it should have stuck.
[00:24:59] If it changes, I'll let her know.
[00:25:01] Right.
[00:25:01] That's the dumb loser and joke.
[00:25:02] That is totally not true.
[00:25:03] No, I know.
[00:25:04] So, but, but this is actually it though.
[00:25:05] It's not a new thing.
[00:25:07] Our job is not to tell people new and exciting things.
[00:25:09] It's to tell people the thing they need to hear at that moment.
[00:25:11] And that's what makes it exciting.
[00:25:12] Yeah.
[00:25:13] Like that, that's what brings the joy out of it is that somebody actually needs to hear it.
[00:25:16] In those pews somewhere, I guarantee you there's at least one person secretly having one of the worst weeks of their life.
[00:25:23] Yeah.
[00:25:23] And you get to point to hope.
[00:25:25] Yeah.
[00:25:26] That's something.
[00:25:27] Yeah.
[00:25:27] I get to point to this Jesus who loves me enough to give me this gift and, and this, this passionate desire to have other people see this as a gift that people that maybe have been around the church for a long time that don't see it as a wow thing might go, oh wow.
[00:25:44] Well, well, he's really fired up about that.
[00:25:46] Why is he really fired up about that?
[00:25:47] Oh, let me tell you.
[00:25:49] Let me tell you.
[00:25:49] Yeah.
[00:25:50] Yeah.
[00:25:51] Let me tell you about this Jesus guy I know.
[00:25:54] Right.
[00:25:54] And that's, that's really what it comes down to.
[00:25:57] Um, there, Harrison, there are so many different little paths that we could go back and go running down.
[00:26:04] Um, I just want to recap golden strength, God's love, uh, husband is, is where, what your name points you to, uh, as God gives it to you.
[00:26:19] Uh, and so as he gives you this identity in who you are, it begins in your baptism.
[00:26:26] Even though that happened later for you, you were in college when you were baptized.
[00:26:30] Yeah.
[00:26:31] But even before that, you knew there was a God.
[00:26:34] You just didn't know who it was.
[00:26:35] Yeah.
[00:26:36] Right.
[00:26:36] And I love the way you said that.
[00:26:38] I knew there had to be a God, but I didn't know who was up there.
[00:26:41] Uh, and I love the way you said that because it points to the person hood.
[00:26:48] It points to, uh, God isn't just, uh, like, uh, the force, right?
[00:26:53] Right.
[00:26:54] Uh, it's not like, may the course be with you.
[00:26:56] Uh, sorry, I'm a golfer too.
[00:26:59] Um, it's the idea that God is personal and invested in relationship with his creation.
[00:27:08] Uh, and, and I'm, I'm one of those people that really struggles when people start talking about
[00:27:13] your personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
[00:27:15] Cause where does it say that in the Bible?
[00:27:17] Right.
[00:27:17] Like ever.
[00:27:18] It's not there ever folks, but it's not your relationship with Jesus, but Jesus relationship
[00:27:24] with you.
[00:27:25] Right.
[00:27:26] He's the one that put his name on you.
[00:27:28] He's the one that called you by the gospel and enlightened you with this gift, sanctifies
[00:27:32] and keeps you in this one true faith as he does the whole Christian church on earth.
[00:27:37] And, and that's because of the person in work of the Holy spirit, which has only come to
[00:27:42] us because of the person in work of Jesus who is only here, God in flesh because of the
[00:27:48] person in work of the father and sending the son to be the savior of the world.
[00:27:53] Uh, the personness of God is so clearly reflected in how you said, uh, I knew there was a God up
[00:28:02] there, but I didn't know who it was.
[00:28:04] Right.
[00:28:05] And, and here folks in the church through the word and the sacrament, God reveals himself
[00:28:12] to us.
[00:28:13] He gives himself to us wholly.
[00:28:15] Uh, and we get to go, Oh, that's really cool.
[00:28:20] Right.
[00:28:21] And, and that's how Christ works in all things.
[00:28:24] You should make a podcast.
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