[00:00:00] You mean not ultimate reality? I'm six two. I'm not I don't think I'm tall. I think I'm average
[00:00:07] But that's what I think about me
[00:00:11] My health is
[00:00:13] questionable spotty at best
[00:00:23] Welcome to Christ In All Things a conversation about meaning and purpose it's based on a verse from the Bible
[00:00:30] Colossians chapter one verse 17 which says Christ is before all things and in him all things hold together
[00:00:37] Christ in All Things is a listening ear into conversations about receiving and giving the love and hope of Christ
[00:00:45] These conversations are an invitation because as much as you'll hear and as much as we enjoy having them
[00:00:52] Digital media operates from a distance and that's not what's best for us with God or with one another
[00:00:59] So thanks for listening and if you're in the neighborhood
[00:01:02] We invite you to participate in person in the life that finds its epicenter at St. Paul's Lutheran Church
[00:01:09] 210 East Pleasant Street in O'Conway, Wisconsin
[00:01:21] In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen
[00:01:26] O Lord open my lips and my mouth will declare your praise. That's Psalm 51 15
[00:01:34] You formed my inward parts you knitted me together in my mother's womb
[00:01:38] I praise you for I am fearfully and wonderfully made
[00:01:42] Wonderful are your works that's Psalm 139 verses 13 and 14
[00:01:49] Your hands have made and fashioned me give me understanding that I may learn your commandments
[00:01:55] Those who fear you shall see me and rejoice
[00:01:59] Because I have hoped in your word again Psalm 119 verses 73 and 74
[00:02:07] The word of the Lord is right and true. He is faithful in all he does
[00:02:12] The Lord loves righteousness and justice
[00:02:15] The earth is full of his unfailing love by the word of the Lord
[00:02:20] Were the heavens made their stary host by the breath of his mouth let all the earth fear the Lord
[00:02:27] Let all the people of the world revere him for he spoke and it came to be
[00:02:32] He commanded and it stood firm
[00:02:35] May your unfailing love rest upon us O Lord
[00:02:39] Even as we put our hope in you and that's Psalm 33
[00:02:44] selected verses and with those words
[00:02:49] Begins wonderfully made a Protestant theology the body by Dr. John Kleinig
[00:02:57] Hello, I'm Pastor Jason Chakman and I am Pastor Lanzo Donald welcome to Christ in all things
[00:03:04] This is the first of several episodes wherein we will discuss this book
[00:03:10] This overall topic which is called a theology of the body
[00:03:15] Is the topic of our time
[00:03:17] For it is a discussion about what it means to be a human being
[00:03:22] These discussions on Christ's and all things will be helpful for Christians
[00:03:27] giving us a better understanding and hope
[00:03:31] To have these conversations in a way that is fair-minded
[00:03:35] So that non-Christians also will gain a better understanding not only of how Christians think
[00:03:41] And what we hope for
[00:03:44] Perhaps
[00:03:45] Of themselves as well
[00:03:48] Though you don't have to have the book to benefit from the discussion
[00:03:52] We encourage listeners to get their own copy of wonderfully made a Protestant theology
[00:03:57] Theol-
[00:03:59] There we have it
[00:04:00] A Protestant theology of the body by John Kleinig. It's a wonderful book
[00:04:07] We will quote from and discuss the hardcover version published in 2021 by LexiNpress
[00:04:14] Today we begin with the introduction
[00:04:17] If you have the book, we're on page two and just beginning of page three
[00:04:21] It's kind of a fortuitous
[00:04:23] Fumbling a little bit at the beginning because
[00:04:26] That's what our life in the body is like
[00:04:29] So again, we're gonna we're gonna start at the top of page two and quote about a page in a quarter here
[00:04:35] And then we'll talk about it
[00:04:38] quote
[00:04:39] The slogans on two sweatshirts worn by young women recently caught my attention
[00:04:45] The first was
[00:04:46] My body my choice
[00:04:48] The second was your body may be a temple but mines in amusement park
[00:04:54] Both sum up how people commonly now regard their bodies
[00:04:57] Since it belongs to them and only to them they may do as they please with it
[00:05:02] Therefore they use it for their own amusement and pursue to physical pleasure for themselves apart from God and any higher purpose in life
[00:05:10] What are we to make of our bodies?
[00:05:13] That is not a theoretical question for idle speculation something for philosophers to consider
[00:05:20] It's a practical matter that determines the course of our lives
[00:05:25] Even if we rarely think about our bodies our opinion of them
[00:05:30] And attitude toward them
[00:05:32] Subconsciously govern how we live and act every moment of our lives
[00:05:38] Our beliefs about our bodies are always in play because our bodies are part and parcel of what we are
[00:05:47] Wherever we are
[00:05:49] There our body is with us
[00:05:51] Whatever we do our body does
[00:05:56] But unless something bad happens to me
[00:05:58] I mostly take my body for granted like the air I breathe
[00:06:02] Even though it is my constant companion
[00:06:05] I seldom consider how I relate to it and what it is meant to be
[00:06:10] Yet it is or should be obvious how important it is to me and the people around me
[00:06:15] It locates me in a particular place at a particular time with particular people
[00:06:21] In my particular society family marriage and workplace
[00:06:26] I am born with my body and die when it can no longer sustain me
[00:06:30] The pattern of my life as a whole involves me with my body from childhood to adolescence
[00:06:36] Marriage to parenthood employment to retirement old age to death
[00:06:42] My body also marks the daily rhythm of my life with waking and sleeping dressing and undressing
[00:06:49] Working and resting from work eating and drinking
[00:06:52] Engaging in sexual intercourse and disengaging from it
[00:06:56] It governs how I interact with others and how they interact with me
[00:07:01] I experience the world around me through it
[00:07:04] I live with my body and do everything with it
[00:07:08] My human life is most obviously and simply
[00:07:12] Life in the body
[00:07:13] Yet
[00:07:15] I did not make my body
[00:07:17] It was given to me and remains given to me
[00:07:20] As the foundation for my life here on earth
[00:07:24] It is never apart from me
[00:07:27] Nor am I ever apart from it for as long as I live here
[00:07:33] End quote
[00:07:34] Now that seems like a pretty good place pastor O'Donnell to stop and chat a bit
[00:07:39] Um, I know as as you were reading that third paragraph talking about the rhythms of the body
[00:07:46] Uh, I boy. I had a few things pop into mind of
[00:07:50] With the way my
[00:07:53] flawed body functions
[00:07:56] There's a lot of rhythms that are just daily activities things that I have to pay attention to
[00:08:02] That are a part of the routine of what it means for me to live here
[00:08:07] I remember when I first read this and again listeners. Thank you for joining us
[00:08:12] This is this is a conversation that we had at St. Paul's
[00:08:17] With some depth in the previous year and we're we're recording this on
[00:08:23] August 29th
[00:08:25] In the year of our Lord, 2023 so
[00:08:29] Last or earlier this year in 2023 but really throughout the previous
[00:08:34] School year so beginning last fall
[00:08:38] We were talking about these issues of the theology of the body
[00:08:40] I remember I remember being struck by the
[00:08:43] I had when I read when I read this I had just come back
[00:08:47] from
[00:08:48] three weeks of camping out west
[00:08:51] In all the way to the Pacific Ocean from Wisconsin which is a good haul with
[00:08:56] my wife and three of our four children and
[00:08:59] We saw some amazing things in some glorious scenery and all kinds
[00:09:05] All kinds of different uh, different people. I was struck by
[00:09:10] When he wrote
[00:09:12] Whatever we do our body does
[00:09:15] But unless something bad happens to me
[00:09:18] I mostly take my body for granted
[00:09:22] Now
[00:09:23] You don't live that as much as rest people do because your your body went haywire beginning when you were about 16 years old
[00:09:31] Yeah, you experienced this a lot younger than most
[00:09:36] You know, that's probably true
[00:09:38] So
[00:09:39] When I was 16 I learned that I was a type one diabetic I lost a kidney and since then other things have just begun breaking down
[00:09:47] Which is lots of fun
[00:09:50] not so much
[00:09:52] Right, so you know even today as we're having as we're recording. I'm
[00:09:58] Having some conversations with my medical care professionals because of medications
[00:10:03] That keep me pretty regular
[00:10:06] Or regulated
[00:10:08] That too
[00:10:10] There's no rescuing that there's no
[00:10:13] In me the shovel all just deeper. There's no rescue
[00:10:16] Boy our light our life in the body
[00:10:19] And it is it is messy
[00:10:22] It is always going to be messy. It's not gonna be perfect. It's not gonna be
[00:10:27] Always a bit of roses
[00:10:30] but
[00:10:32] whatever we do
[00:10:34] Our our body does
[00:10:37] You came to grips with this fairly recently as well
[00:10:41] when
[00:10:43] You learned that you had limes disease. Yeah, all the fun that went along got a bit by a family by a tick likely on our family
[00:10:51] vacation and northern Wisconsin and the next thing you know I had spots all over my body and a fever and a headache and
[00:10:57] What in the world is going on here?
[00:10:59] So and we've you and I have talked about how
[00:11:03] Coming to grips with your own mortality is
[00:11:07] not something that
[00:11:10] We as human beings
[00:11:12] like to do
[00:11:14] or
[00:11:16] Even do willingly
[00:11:18] And it's only when something bad happens or we call it bad right when something happens
[00:11:26] That we have to take stock of
[00:11:29] Our body and how it functions because we do take it for granted
[00:11:34] We don't think about every breath we breathe. We certainly don't think about every time our heart beats
[00:11:39] But that's a part of our body
[00:11:42] You know you're fully in one way. It's interesting
[00:11:45] You're you are a bit of an exception because you had this
[00:11:50] revealed to you yeah when you're in the middle of your teens
[00:11:55] For most people that occurs at some point later, but we all we all I was thinking about we all experience this as kids
[00:12:04] But you know we have our really formative year
[00:12:07] I would you know it would seem our really formative years as human beings
[00:12:11] When we're children through our teens in our early 20s and most of us are most of us
[00:12:17] Are in really pretty good health at that time. So we form how we we think
[00:12:21] You know when when you're I suspect you were a typical little boy pastor shockman and you're
[00:12:27] You know riding around on your on your bike and at some point you you fell off and scraped yourself
[00:12:33] And you had an encounter with oh
[00:12:35] Ouch right and you went and asked your mom for help eight years old
[00:12:41] hand
[00:12:43] Right arm went through the handlebars. I went head over heels over the handlebars and came up with two wrists
[00:12:50] Yeah, so broke bones going through and realized really really really
[00:12:55] This body breaks
[00:12:57] But in the my point is
[00:12:59] That have that type of thing maybe maybe not that traumatic yeah
[00:13:04] How happens to us when we're little but yeah
[00:13:08] We heal yeah because our bodies are
[00:13:11] Are very alive as it were at that time. Yeah most of us we heal quickly and then we forget
[00:13:17] What
[00:13:19] What happened there in dr. Clienic's point is and we we just take it for granted
[00:13:25] Yeah, this this body that that we have and
[00:13:30] And and thus also take it for granted getting toward the end of this section that we read here
[00:13:36] We didn't make our body
[00:13:38] We didn't
[00:13:40] Earn our body it was given it was given to us. Yeah
[00:13:45] Likewise
[00:13:47] The condition in which we live
[00:13:49] You know and this is a good place to and this is not a divergence
[00:13:55] A place to explore my my sense
[00:13:58] My sense of things as goes back to the quotations with which dr. Clienic begins the book
[00:14:05] You the slogans on two sweatshirts worn by young women recently caught my intention dr. Clienic writes
[00:14:12] The first was my body my choice and the second was your body may be a temple
[00:14:17] But mine's an amusement park. Yeah, it you know it's right it strikes me
[00:14:24] That
[00:14:28] Our well we struggle to live our life we struggle to live our lives
[00:14:33] In our bodies we take we take them for granted and
[00:14:37] And
[00:14:38] We think we think we can do whatever we want with them, but they are given
[00:14:44] We
[00:14:45] We don't we don't make we don't make ourselves
[00:14:50] Nor do we make something of ourselves and
[00:14:54] And so it strikes me and this is what it's related
[00:14:57] Related to those quotations
[00:15:00] It's it's right it strikes me that
[00:15:03] But that is the that is the common way that we act in our world
[00:15:08] We act as though
[00:15:11] Um
[00:15:13] Our bodies
[00:15:15] belong
[00:15:18] To us
[00:15:20] Not in a given way, but in a possessive way
[00:15:25] And in what if you know when you're
[00:15:29] You know, it's one thing if you're a little kid and you're your normal kid a quote unquote
[00:15:34] normal normal kid
[00:15:37] And the in that probably rather wide band
[00:15:42] relatively wide band of what's normal
[00:15:47] But if you're on the edge of that in some way shape or form
[00:15:53] We have some dissatisfaction. Yeah to tall to skinny to short
[00:15:58] To round
[00:16:00] You know in other in other kid two of those and in other kids note other kids notice. Oh, yeah
[00:16:05] And they tell us oh, yeah very often
[00:16:08] And we don't have what we call the emotional intelligence to know
[00:16:13] That there's a time to listen and a time to speak and when you're talking about somebody else's body is probably not the time to speak spout off
[00:16:21] um
[00:16:22] Not realizing that
[00:16:25] The hurt that that kind of curve but it's but it's a way to express power over people
[00:16:30] Yeah, and again we don't have
[00:16:32] And some sometimes and I've seen this happen with kids too is sometimes
[00:16:37] Um especially little or kids
[00:16:40] They're they're just recognizing
[00:16:43] Hey, you're different
[00:16:46] I don't look that way
[00:16:48] But you do I'm gonna tell us a mildly off-color thing just because
[00:16:54] It gets when I have I have
[00:16:56] To we have two boys and two girls my wife my wife carry and I and I remember
[00:17:01] And I could tell the story little little baby brother came home uh and
[00:17:06] Uh
[00:17:07] Little baby brother was getting his diaper changed
[00:17:11] In little toddler sister walked in and said oh
[00:17:15] That's a funny tale
[00:17:24] You know and
[00:17:26] Just in it was sweet
[00:17:28] And and cute and is part of uh is part of our everlasting
[00:17:32] Lord ever part of part of family lore but that's that's a point you know
[00:17:36] We yeah, we notice things that are different when we're kids and we just say it and some sometimes it's
[00:17:42] Sometimes it's mean and sometimes it's just
[00:17:46] An observation your head's really big. Yeah or dad
[00:17:50] That woman's really large
[00:17:53] or dad
[00:17:55] Why is that child so tall?
[00:17:57] And they're not
[00:17:59] denigrating
[00:18:01] or or with uh
[00:18:06] Venom is the word that came to mind yeah malicious intent
[00:18:10] Right saying what they see they're just recognizing
[00:18:14] These bodies that we are given are different
[00:18:18] Mm-hmm
[00:18:19] And what a wonder
[00:18:22] That they are
[00:18:23] that the same
[00:18:26] Genetic coding in the human race
[00:18:30] Has such a breadth of manifestation
[00:18:36] Right
[00:18:37] We get we I think everybody in the world that I know of
[00:18:43] Struggles with
[00:18:45] At some point in their life or even throughout the some level of dissatisfaction
[00:18:50] With with their body and
[00:18:54] You know, I wonder I wonder what you what you think about this I because I don't think most of us think of it but
[00:19:02] We know
[00:19:04] We know
[00:19:06] What Dr. Kleining says we do that our bodies are given
[00:19:10] And now and so our
[00:19:12] What our
[00:19:14] dissatisfaction
[00:19:17] rarely spoken
[00:19:19] Often acted on
[00:19:21] Is actually a dissatisfaction with the one who gave us our body indeed
[00:19:26] And I think
[00:19:30] Because our body is given to us and equally as important
[00:19:36] And this is where he goes next right as Dr. Kleining continues
[00:19:41] That that our body is
[00:19:44] Important for our life
[00:19:48] Here
[00:19:49] Kind of a captain obvious moment, but because you live in it yeah, right and so I think as we
[00:19:57] come to be
[00:19:59] dissatisfied with our bodies
[00:20:03] We are expressing
[00:20:05] Some dissatisfaction with the one
[00:20:09] Who gave it to us whether we recognize it or not yeah agreed and
[00:20:15] The the the manifestation of that
[00:20:19] Comes out
[00:20:21] I think or I see in all kinds of ways as people use their bodies in ways
[00:20:30] That aren't
[00:20:32] Intense for our bodies to be used for
[00:20:36] With the understanding that this is how I cope
[00:20:41] With my body being what it is
[00:20:44] Yeah, do you mind talking about
[00:20:48] Beautiful bodies for a minute okay
[00:20:51] And and I say beautiful bodies because
[00:20:55] We will talk about in many in various ways in future episodes as all bodies are beautiful
[00:21:02] And we'll talk about the why of that but there's the world's definition of what is beautiful
[00:21:08] Has changed a bit and changes a bit over time, but there's some there's some general stuff
[00:21:13] But I'm thinking of I'm you know, I'm thinking about something
[00:21:17] I recognize now as a father
[00:21:20] When when I when I see a
[00:21:26] A young woman
[00:21:28] Or a young man
[00:21:31] And I
[00:21:32] In this young girl you know, you for example is
[00:21:39] Physically beautiful in the way that most worldly people acknowledge physically beautiful. I'll find myself thinking
[00:21:48] Oh, dad
[00:21:49] God, you know and and I've said it to a few dads with that I have trust with god help you
[00:21:54] You know there's a there is a
[00:21:56] A particular challenge
[00:21:59] That having
[00:22:02] Extra-ordinary beauty comes with it that that it brings yeah, it brings how's that old song go if you want to be happy for the rest of your life
[00:22:12] Never make a pretty woman your wife
[00:22:16] Right this is because because right
[00:22:19] You then you constantly have that
[00:22:23] worry or that
[00:22:25] Concern or that fending off of people who are drawn to that beauty for all the wrong reasons
[00:22:31] You know think of young I think of young men. Yeah
[00:22:35] Young men as well, you know, I think how many
[00:22:40] Boys on the verge of young manhood
[00:22:43] That
[00:22:44] You know that I know or know of over the years
[00:22:48] Where I knew them as sweet and tenderhearted in then they grow and it's clear
[00:22:57] this is
[00:22:59] Tall dark enhance them and then
[00:23:02] For reasons that are obvious and some that are not you know young women throw themselves in all the sudden
[00:23:10] Their countenance changes. Mm-hmm. They're attitude of who they are changes. Mm-hmm. The yet um
[00:23:16] The expectation of the world toward them changes
[00:23:21] You know we we expect a handsome young man to be a player
[00:23:27] In a way that we don't expect
[00:23:30] Average show to be
[00:23:34] And that's a or it's actually a wicked thing or the skinny nerdy choir kid to be yeah
[00:23:41] It's it
[00:23:43] It can be
[00:23:44] It can be a worldly beauty
[00:23:48] Can be and sometimes as a curse. Yeah
[00:23:51] Our lives in our bodies
[00:23:56] Our com- our complicated
[00:23:58] Really are very- are very complicated. Yeah, I would agree with that. I would agree with that
[00:24:04] So not not only
[00:24:06] Uh
[00:24:07] From from a medical how your body functions point of view
[00:24:12] But also from a
[00:24:14] From a physical appearance point of view
[00:24:17] Not to mention right some people who are
[00:24:21] Physically gifted with height
[00:24:24] Or people who are physically gifted with the lack of height
[00:24:29] I saw a t-shirt the other day that said
[00:24:32] Short people
[00:24:35] God lets things grow until they're perfect and some of you took longer
[00:24:42] That's pretty awesome. That made me laugh
[00:24:44] Cuz you know, I mean I'm six too. I'm not I'm not
[00:24:48] Super tall by any stretch of no you're you're tall your you're you are but you're above average for sure
[00:24:55] Yeah, but I wouldn't call you for an American male okay, but I wouldn't call you short
[00:25:01] Yeah, he'd be I'm right on average right I'm just a hair under five ten. Yeah
[00:25:05] so so then
[00:25:08] Right where does all of that this is my body fit into
[00:25:13] All this variance and how we deal with the world around us because of the frame that we're looking at it through
[00:25:21] right I think um well, I think a lot of things
[00:25:27] I think that all too often we
[00:25:31] From our physical frame
[00:25:34] uh
[00:25:37] Choose how we view the world
[00:25:41] without
[00:25:44] Considering that our physical frame is
[00:25:49] Not the reality
[00:25:52] What do you mean?
[00:25:54] Um, you mean not ultimate reality I'm six two. I'm not I don't think I'm tall
[00:26:01] I think I'm average
[00:26:03] But that's what I think about me
[00:26:08] My health is
[00:26:10] questionable spotty at best
[00:26:13] But according to my doctors
[00:26:16] I manage what I've been given
[00:26:19] extremely well
[00:26:21] I just saw my endo
[00:26:24] On the 14th right so two weeks and by that you mean endocrinologist yeah my endocrinologist who
[00:26:30] Doctor that hopes with diabetes management right who asked if she could print my
[00:26:36] charting
[00:26:37] Uh, it's all digital now like
[00:26:39] Down you know the insulin pump turns out charts and graphs and stuff
[00:26:44] She asked if she could print my chart and or my charting of my numbers
[00:26:48] And you raise the name and just share it with other
[00:26:51] Patients that she has to say look guys this is what's possible
[00:26:57] If you stand top of it if you stand
[00:26:59] But from my perspective
[00:27:02] It's a struggle in that battle with this and I don't think I don't think I have that great a control now
[00:27:08] My last A1C was a 6.4 which
[00:27:12] As a diabetic that's pretty good
[00:27:15] Uh, but high for everybody else but for a non diabetic that's pretty high
[00:27:20] um
[00:27:21] But my frame like my frame of reference for the world is so
[00:27:28] Tainted by
[00:27:31] my
[00:27:32] Experience of life in the body
[00:27:35] that I color reality
[00:27:38] In the world based on
[00:27:41] My life in this body and you know that's going to be a great place
[00:27:46] I think for us to end this segment
[00:27:49] And get into the and get into the second one because the truth is
[00:27:55] We all do what you do
[00:27:59] We all our frame of reference whatever our
[00:28:03] our
[00:28:04] Body is and our struggles or joys within it that's the way
[00:28:10] Tends to be the frame of reference or the way
[00:28:13] Naturally yeah, that we see the world. Yeah, but there's more
[00:28:17] But there's more and we'll come back to that in our second conversation
[00:28:22] On Dr. Clarence's book
[00:28:34] For show notes and other information about Christ in all things visit christinallthings.org
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[00:28:57] Please click the support page at christinallthings.org
[00:29:01] A donation of any kind gets you a dozen environmentally friendly christinallthings
[00:29:06] Strauss to share with your friends pastor shakman loves these
[00:29:09] That is so not true
[00:29:10] You love those way too much and I still can't believe you bought them
[00:29:13] A donation of $200 or more gets you some cheerful on air clapping
[00:29:19] And a pair of Wisconsin made with warm hiking socks
[00:29:24] A donation of $1000 and more gets you thunderous on air clapping
[00:29:29] And a handmade christ in all things leather folio by the murdy creative company
[00:29:34] If you want to donate more than that
[00:29:36] Well fly us wherever you want and we will record Christ in all things at your chosen location
[00:29:42] Within reason of course
[00:29:44] All post-production surplus supports youth ministry at saint paul's
[00:29:48] Thank you for your support
[00:29:49] christinallthings is a production of saint paul's Lutheran Church
[00:29:52] 210 East Pleasant Street in O'Connor, Milwaukee, Wisconsin
[00:29:56] For more information about saint paul's visit splco.org
[00:30:01] Email us at info at splco.org
[00:30:05] Or the old fashioned way give us a call
[00:30:07] 262-567-5001
[00:30:11] Intro and outro music setting by Joseph Hurl
[00:30:14] Copyright 1998 Concordia Publishing House
[00:30:17] Used with permission