[00:00:00] is a little like a school that it's like, oh, I'll get to see my people, we get to get together who's having babies who's getting married. What's going on? It's to joy. It just, it is a joy.
[00:00:10] It's a joy to come here and to be part of this. Welcome to Christ In All Things, a conversation about meaning and purpose. It's based on a verse from the Bible, Colossians chapter 1 verse 17 which says, Christ is before all things and in him all things hold together.
[00:00:33] Based in all things is a listening ear into conversations about receiving and giving, the love and hope of Christ. These conversations are an invitation because as much as you hear and as much as we enjoy
[00:00:45] having them, digital media operates from a distance and that's not what's best for us with God or with one another. So thanks for listening. And if you're in the neighborhood, we invite you to participate in person in the life
[00:01:01] that finds it's epicenter at St. Paul's Lutheran Church, 210 East Pleasant Street in O'Connor, Wisconsin. Welcome back to Christ In All Things. I am Pastor Lance O'Donnell, still Pastor Jason Chachman and we again have with us for part two of our conversation. Mrs. Sarah Benis. Hello. Welcome back, Sarah.
[00:01:30] Good to see you. I want to begin part two of our conversation before we dig into the what's number three on your list. I'd like to start with your confirmation verse, which is great for you.
[00:01:45] Philippians chapter four verse six, do not be anxious about anything but in everything by prayer and supplication with Thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God then verse seven. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
[00:02:09] Did you pick that verse or did somebody pick it for you? No, I picked it. You picked Paul Borgman was our confirmation teacher and he allowed us to. Who was the senior pastor here for about 30 years? Yep, yep, he's near and dear to my heart.
[00:02:24] Yeah, he married us and baptized our kids. Yeah, so anyhow. So yeah, so you got like 18 years to catch him. That would be, that would be amazing. We'll have to see. Can you imagine doing this with me for 18 years?
[00:02:40] I can imagine, I can imagine doing a lot here. For me, Sarah, one of the great, one of the, well, we'll probably talk about a whole pile of stuff in part two. Absolutely. Because I'm interested. You're a long-term servant. Here. Yes, I am.
[00:02:58] And that has its own joys and sorrows as sure does. And perhaps we'll get to talk about it. One of the, there are some great benefits to long-term service in a particular place. There are also, as I'm discovering, there are also some challenges.
[00:03:21] And maybe we'll talk about that in part two. But that my, our particular interest here is about you. And so in part one, we talked about your name and what it means. Your princess, Sarah and a friend, Ruth and compassionate woman of high rank to all.
[00:03:44] And which is, which is very fitting. It is for you and from the people from whom you come and you talked about, you know, number one on your list of the top three to five things that formed you as a human being.
[00:03:56] Number one was your family, which was deeply intertwined. And that was the bulk of our conversation in part one, how deeply intertwined that is with Christ in the life of the church. Absolutely. So what's number three of those top three to five things on your,
[00:04:11] but that formed you as a human being. Yes, she scrubs. You know, it's, there's so much right that makes you who you are to think of the top. But Jesus for sure, I mean, give me Jesus, just give me Jesus.
[00:04:27] But almost as close as my family, if maybe just as close would be the people I serve with. They are amazing, amazing people. And being here as long as I have been. And again, we're talking how many years now? So many people come and go since 2000 type of.
[00:04:46] Serving on the faculty but going, but your time at St. Paul's going back to removed your doors back to 1987. Yeah. So I mean, when I first came on board as a teacher here, there were still teachers here who had
[00:05:01] been my teachers, which is so awkward right, you know, they're just call me John or just call me and I'm like, I can't call you John. Your name is Mr. Dom that's you know.
[00:05:10] But it was a joy to see who they had become and just the support that we have here at St. Paul's from our staff was amazing. So you gave two answers, Sarah. And I want, so let's do the fellow servants as number four. Let's do it.
[00:05:30] But number three, which I sent to which I sense is really the center of all this is Jesus. Jesus. Mm-hmm. Why is that the center? Uh, well, he's at the forefront of all that I do and all that motivates me and I get, I'm
[00:05:48] sinful and at times, of course, I'm making decisions based on me. But you know, I love people. I love people. I just love being with people. I love observing people. I love just getting in no one will make some tick.
[00:06:00] I think that's the reason I love being a teacher. I just love getting to know these children and how they were operating with they enjoy. But just seeing them as Jesus sees them, you know? And sometimes there's so lost.
[00:06:14] My students, people I meet and you just want to meet them where they are and love them. The way Jesus does, you know? And there's so much joy in that. There's a lot of frustration in that too because you want people,
[00:06:27] sometimes people you love very much to know Jesus like you do. And that's not always the case. But we pray, forvently, right? Right? We do. And God loves us and He knows. He knows and He sees. And He loves us people. He loves us people.
[00:06:44] We're all as people. You know? So God's word, the word, Jesus is the word. Being in the word every day, every day, I just, I can't function if I'm not It's kind of like some people you hear like that are runners.
[00:06:58] You know, after run every day, otherwise I just am clouded and I can't think and I can't. You know, if I'm off, I know why I'm off because I haven't rooted myself properly or been in prayer or those kinds of things. So, which are essential.
[00:07:12] And are you talking essentially about your own kind of personal devotional life here? So how does that work for you? Absolutely. Well, yeah. I kind of have a little routine. I mean, the summer is a beautiful time for me because I'm off.
[00:07:24] So I can spend an hour or more in the morning. It's the first thing I like to do. So I'll get up, get my coffee, go sit my son room and you know, just meditate on the word.
[00:07:33] I typically do, I was doing it for a long time for my personal study. I do a song. I do the proverb of the day because of course, they're 31 chambers. So you just pick the day and read that proverb.
[00:07:43] And then I would just read through the new testament again and again and again. And then this summer I decided to start the old testament all over again. It's been a while. So I'm back in Jenna. Well, I'm an accident now. Made a Jackson. Okay. Good for you.
[00:07:57] So you know, I'll learn how they made the tabernacle and all the different things about that. You know, but it's a, you know, you teach it and you live it and you know it, but it's good to go back. Right?
[00:08:05] It's good to reread all these things and to ponder. And I remember a couple of years ago I was studying revelation again and I called out to actually pastor Jackman about something and I'd see him in the hall. And what does this mean exactly?
[00:08:15] And he came back to me with all this literature and stuff. And it was like good stuff. So, you know, I do spend quite a bit of time on my own just in the word and and print prayer. Just praying for my people, praying for all of you.
[00:08:27] How do you, how do you do that? Well, I have a journal that I write in and I will often write scriptures over people's names or sometimes if I'm really focused on someone, I will write their name and like circle them. Literally circle their name.
[00:08:41] And whatever it is that I'm feeling or that I know they need, I'm just praying that over them. And I will often review, I'll go back and look and be like, oh, look at you know, and of course it's praise the Lord this work.
[00:08:51] Or oh, look how that went. And so I assume there are several volumes of this. There are. I have like five books filled with stuff and it's so funny because I'm like, why don't we go do a follow-up stuff?
[00:09:04] And have you have you have you stored and kept them somewhere? Oh yeah, I do have them. I have a little library at home that I keep them in. Yes, carries blessed maternal grandmother was like this and Carrie found that after her
[00:09:22] grandmother died, that reading that journal was a family treasure. Well, perhaps someday maybe someone might be interested in it. It was a family treasure. But I do have to say that for myself, it roots me, it focuses me, it brings me great joy. It's a sorrow at times.
[00:09:46] Yeah, this is helpful. So are you always, that's a pretty disciplined life of meditation on the scriptures, devotional life? Were you always like that or how did that? No, no. No, no. Like I said as children we always did the devotion of the dinner table.
[00:10:04] In college I took the portals of prayer with me that was always my thing. Because I, it's like as to back up a minute, when I left St. Paul's, the only Lutheran high school at the time near us was Milwaukee Lutheran.
[00:10:18] And there were good group of kids that were going there from here. But being the oldest of six and with just my father worked the direction, he didn't work near Milwaukee. My parents just decided to forgo it and that I was going to go to O'Connor,
[00:10:31] which was fine. It worked out fine. I met Eric, it was fine. It was good. And you know, I wouldn't be where I am today without that. But having said that then, then when I looked to college, I ended up going to win on a state.
[00:10:44] You know, I didn't go the Concordia route. I didn't, you know, it wasn't, I guess even on my radar. And then became a teacher and Eric and I after we got married, we moved out to Virginia.
[00:10:56] The first thing Eric did was find a church so we had a church right away that we were at. But I taught in the public system out there. I'm some amazing people, but our church again was a great place to be and people were baffled.
[00:11:07] This is this is going to just blow your mind. But they were baffled because the first year we lived out there, we weren't married. So we had our own apartments and people thought we were nuts.
[00:11:18] Why would you do that? That's so much money and it wasn't like well because we're not married. So we don't want to live together until we're married, you know, that's when you live together. Oh, that's weird.
[00:11:29] They just couldn't wrap their minds around that, you know, that we were that that was, you know, what we wanted to do. But anyway, I digress. What was question? I don't know. Well the question was the question was relayed to the evolution of your devotional.
[00:11:45] Right. Okay. So then Porta's a prayer was my big thing in college and then as we moved on out to Virginia, I started doing a gratitude journal that was like thing then. Like, oh, you know, be thankful.
[00:11:59] But ever, you know, might have even, I'm sorry to say have come from Oprah. The only excuse in the beginning. Right. Right. Right. Right. But of course, I was approaching it from a
[00:12:08] biblical point. Yeah. You know, thank you for this thing and from there it just grew and I was, you know, 25 at the time and yes, so I've been doing at least 10, 15 years.
[00:12:20] Been, been definitely really plugging into all this and and spending a, I could spend hours at times. But there's not always hours as you both know to do that. But the more and the more the more you're with Jesus,
[00:12:33] the more you're like Jesus, right? You just are and it makes a big difference. So I'm saying I'm Jesus. What I'm saying is we have God's word in us and it comes readily to us.
[00:12:47] And the way we interact with others, it is just more vibrantly alive in us. He is alive in us. You know, it's it's a beautiful thing. Yeah. So now that the school, you know, as we record this,
[00:13:02] it is the 24th of August in the year of our Lord, 2023, just finished day two, just finished a school year. And which are, which were for us here in Wisconsin. Yes. Demi hat. Oh, heat advisor.
[00:13:18] You're the last to you. In, you know, near a hot, near a hundred degrees, which is, which is us, which is hot for us. You made and so, you know, it's, you just finished a long second day with
[00:13:30] the vibrators. And we had not yet noted as that we do not have air conditioning in our classrooms. There are air conditioned parts of the building, like the chapel, right? Or the church, rather
[00:13:40] the library, the computer lab. So we've used those pastors offices, right? Where you guys have been hiding? I'm just kidding. Some trees to that. Not at all. Not at all. Well, it was wonderfully yesterday.
[00:13:51] You did the two chapels. That was perfect. Yeah. Starting today and end. So so how does, you know, on this note, because I think, you know, it's one thing for Pastor Shackman and I to talk about it as pastors,
[00:14:04] but you're talking about a disciplined life of prayer and how that has been a blessing to you in, in you can tell also to your, to your family, to your students and to the, by virtue of
[00:14:16] that to their families. Now, but now we're in the school year. Yes. And you don't, I don't remember you being a super eager morning person or are you? Well, I'm a 545. I get up. Okay. And I do my,
[00:14:34] I do my Bible and I do my prayers. However this year as we are two days in, I've been getting up at six and just doing the LWML devotion of the day, the mustard seed. Yeah. Which is great.
[00:14:48] I'm getting an older and I'm tired. I'm at a long goes off and I'm like, oh gee. So I'm re-shuffling yesterday. I've been, I was very tired and didn't do much at all. But I, you know,
[00:14:59] I'm going to re-shuffling thinking, okay, where does this fit better in my day and how am I going to do this? And yeah, for those of you who are for our listeners, we really, we want to encourage
[00:15:11] you to have, for the center of your life to be in the divine service in receiving God's gifts and word and sacrament. But an absolute key outflow of that is a, is a disciplined life of,
[00:15:26] of prayer. It's of great benefit. One of the things though that Sarah's describing here is, you know, stuff comes up in life and we have to adjust to that. Sometimes that's not our clean,
[00:15:38] linear thing. Right. Right. What you're figuring out how you're going to do this. Okay, I'm getting a little bit older. I tend to be five, you know, but. Yeah. And I think, you know, a day two,
[00:15:48] you know, we'll see it because it is a great way to start the day. But then sometimes I'll get behind. You mean, you know, I'll walk in late, you know, even for those of us who serve in the church and
[00:16:01] serve in a church school, you mean life is messy. Really? Oh yeah, that's a good segue into you, you put the two together. You know, these, but so number number one was family.
[00:16:21] Number two was church. Church. Number three is Jesus. Which is really about how you are receiving Christ in your personal devotions, in your time in the word. It's not just Jesus, but in particular,
[00:16:43] how you are receiving His word and rooted. And therefore rooted in it. And then number four is the, I'm going to call it the family in Christ you serve with. The staff here at St. Paul. So talk about that.
[00:17:02] Yeah. So I, we meet every morning for devotion, which is again a wonderful way to start in the word. And we often share very intimate parts of our lives with one another. Our sorrows,
[00:17:16] our joys, you know, our difficulties, our temptations. And when you're honest with one another in that way, it just builds these, these bridges between between us that, you know, cannot be broken. These bonds,
[00:17:31] I guess. I mean, this summer we often all come into and how it's, we miss one another. We, we are sorrowful that we're not together because, you know, you're so connected with these people
[00:17:42] that and they, they know all about you. And then I'll have said you're not with them any longer. It's different. It's an interesting feeling. So it's always good to be together. And that's another thing.
[00:17:51] I mean, you know, my husband works in the corporate world and whatever. So it's a job. But I, you know, a school gets coming around and of course there's always a little like a school
[00:18:01] but it's like, oh, I'll get to see my people. We get to get together who's having babies who's getting married. What's going on? You know, it's to joy. It just, it is a joy.
[00:18:10] It's a joy to come here and to be part of this every single day. You know, and you know that everyone is like minded there all about Jesus, all about God's Word, about sharing it with
[00:18:21] these people, these children, these families. And it's just a joy. It just is to know that that's our common thread. Right? That's what keeps us together. I mean, not that we don't have
[00:18:32] differences at times because of course we do. We're only human. You know, we have, I thought we should do it this way. Well, I think we should do, you know? And you know that's part of growing together right? Figuring things out and
[00:18:41] compromising at times. But it's just something that doesn't separate or can't, I don't know. It's hard to put into words. I guess a little bit. Yeah. It early is. I can't describe it. It's
[00:18:56] Oh, I think you actually did describe it. Did I? Yeah, you said we are like minded. Well, we may have a difference of opinion. We may have a difference of how do we go best about this
[00:19:10] that or the other but what drives us and what holds us together and what gives us a reason to do what we do, whether it's lunch ladies or our extended school program or early childhood center
[00:19:29] or the pastoral staff or the church staff. We share this because of who we are in Christ because of what we've received from Christ because Christ is in all things. Shameless plug. Yes. Not Shameless. Not at all. Never be a Shameless. Not at all. Romans 1 16. Because of that,
[00:19:53] we can even if we disagree on something, look each other in the eye and be okay, moving forward knowing we have the forgiveness of Christ to share with one another and that is going to hold us
[00:20:07] together. Regardless. So let's go. You hit the nail on the head with the word forgiveness because that is something a skill even if you will that is lacking. People don't know how to do it.
[00:20:21] They don't know how to let it go and I thought that would be what it would it talk about what forgiveness it means and practicing it. Correct. I mean being able to forgive someone for something right,
[00:20:37] especially when it has personally hit you right there's pride there that's so difficult. How do I forgive you for that? You have hurt me. And from the itty bitties here, we talk about you
[00:20:51] say to them, I'm sorry. You don't say well it's okay. It's not okay. I forgive you and even as adults it's challenging. I mean you're both in marriages. You know how that works and sometimes we just
[00:21:04] want to sit on this for a while and just see where you do. You know how the thing and it's like okay. You can tend to sit here and feel just fine in my room so you can get right. You know and
[00:21:16] yet as soon as you give a receive forgiveness it's like, okay let's move forward. You know and that is it? I mean it's the best gift you can give anyone. Sarah what how I mean you talked about I'm sorry
[00:21:31] but but we use this I think a little differently than the world does. Talk a little bit about the difference between forgiveness and being sorry. Sure sure so I suppose when you say you're
[00:21:50] sorry it might not necessarily be from your heart it's something you're just saying or trying to gloss over. I'm sorry that you feel that way or oh I'm sorry that that happened you know but when you
[00:22:01] when you're truly saying you're sorry that you've hurt someone that that's a heart thing right it's from the heart and you're feeling repentant that this has happened and you're truly saying
[00:22:12] I'm so like my heart is hurting I'm so sorry this happened that I did this to you please please forgive me it was wrong and to admit we are wrong right is that the heart of the human right I kind of
[00:22:27] you know self me I am good I am great I do not need to be forgiven or different so if we're enough forgive that means they're sin involved absolutely now I can apologize for something and say well
[00:22:42] I'm sorry and totally feel justified in what I'm apologizing for because I'm sorry that bothered you that hurt you I'm sorry all the while not feeling like not not believing even in fact correct
[00:22:58] that I did anything wrong I feel justified in it but I know it bothered you so I'll apologize to make you feel better right but forgive please forgive me I'm sorry please forgive me is a confession of sin
[00:23:17] it is and and the response of I forgive you because Jesus forgives you sets that person free well yeah so it's a huge death rather than have the pastors talk about this because
[00:23:34] you know you took you took us there how is I mean because we we use the word forgiveness in secular culture in the world but how is how is Christian forgiveness different than that
[00:23:50] what's it rooted in then maybe the world do you have a you have a or is that is that two of a good question I saw the look on it I mean see because you're you are exuding something
[00:24:05] that I think you're assuming or that you just know so profoundly that is not as becoming clear and it has at its root my senses what this church what this podcast is all about it's
[00:24:21] Christ and all things yeah and you know just to touch base a little bit on modeling right forgiveness is a matter of the heart you cannot make someone repent or forgive you cannot we can model model model and we can say this is what Jesus did for us
[00:24:43] and you know to receive that into your heart you know when you really truly understand in your heart and in your in your mind what Jesus Christ has done for you then you are so able to forgive other people but when you truly don't grasp what
[00:25:02] what that means what Jesus has done for us you don't get it you know it's it is different it's not based it's not based in Christ it's just a saying of I forgive you for that it's not
[00:25:17] taking it where we take it where it comes from and understanding of so you know forget forgiveness culturally I think you could say is you know you wipe you know maybe you wipe a ledger clean
[00:25:30] and it's not a fresh start you know but in in Christian terms it's deeper than that because as Pastor Shackman you alluded to we understand that it's not just a mistake
[00:25:47] and you use that that and because you use the word sin it's not just it's not just a mistake not just an error in judgment when we're too quick to discipline a child in class
[00:26:01] sure that we don't get all the information and we end up end up being unjust in which happens in our families and in in our classrooms we we understand that we've actually violated God's will and then it's not just an error in judgment
[00:26:24] and that there's a potential long-term consequence for that in that in that Christ paid for and he doesn't just well he not only wipes the ledger clean which is merciful but he says go and be free and love it's not it's not just that he wipes the ledger
[00:27:03] clean it said he gives you a brand new ledger and says try again here he goes have that right and the same as Sarah that he had right he does this for us originally and daily right
[00:27:18] the things Sarah that you pointed out whether you know you pointed it out or not I just want to put terms to it you said you can't make someone repent and you can't make someone forgive
[00:27:36] and there's a curious reason why that's true and the curious reason why that's true is both repentance and forgiveness are gifts that you receive God works repentant in our God work he
[00:27:52] gives us the gift of repentance he gives us the gift of forgiveness these are things that we first receive and only one we've received them like you said only when you know this gift that Christ gave you
[00:28:08] can you share it with someone else absolutely so you're right you can't make people do this we can't make our staff have the relationships that they have you can't make a family relate to
[00:28:20] itself the way that it does you can't make another person have the devotional life that you've learned the discipline of you can't make a family stay tight together as they move galvancing
[00:28:32] all about the nation for my family was all about the state of Ohio because my dead work for my bell right and we did and maybe you learned the same lesson I did as a kid that
[00:28:45] were for us home wasn't a place it was wherever our family was together because that was the gift that we'd been given was each other as as we come up on the end of part two here I just want to
[00:29:02] stop from an and appreciate that all of the things you talked about that formed who you are all fall out of that gift language that is given to us by the gospel the family you are given
[00:29:20] the church family you are given the the devotional life you are given in his word the staff that is given to have this relationship with one another the forgiveness and the repentance
[00:29:33] that we are gifted with by the gospel right really Sarah in every aspect of what makes you who you are Christ in all things is the only thing that makes that possible amen and that friends is part two
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[00:31:30] information about Saint Paul's visit splco.org email us at info at splco.org or the old fashion way give us a call 262 567 5001 intro and out from music setting by Joseph Hurl copyright 1998 Concordia Publishing House used with permission